Confused in Scugog

[Diplomat]

Live 20-40. Somehow I got Gamblor to drive us to the casino for some live action. I had almost forgotten what chips feel like. Anyway, so-so 20-40 game with too many tight-boring types and a couple of tricksters for flavour. 11-handed.

Thinking but tilting posts in the CO. He's probably played over 200 hours with me and is smart enough to remember how loose-whacky I play.

Anyway folded to him who checks. I raise on the button with ATo. Both blinds call. Both blinds hate me and would call here out of spite.*

Pretty standard stuff here. It would be pretty odd for the CO to check any playable hand here after it was folded to him, so I'd love to get HU or steal it all. And AT isn't bad from that spot.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Checked to me and I bet. The small blind calls. The big blind folds. The CO checkraises. I three-bet. The small blind calls two more. The CO caps. I call, the small blind calls.

Where the crap did that come from? My bet is obvious, the small blind's first call is whatever, but the CO checkraise scares me a bit. I doublt he'd check any ace pre-flop, so I discounted that pretty quickly. He's got a tendancy to pump some hands in an effort to get my off something because he knows I'll fold tens or something similar. Let's go for an infomation three-bet.

Then the small blind calls two cold. Ok. 75, flushdraw, or a monster. I put monster as the least likely as he'd three-bet me pre-flop with everything but 68 here. Ok, draw.)

The CO caps. Hmm. Ok now I begin to seriously consider that he has either 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 68. I'm calling, but trying to spike a non-heart ten or ace.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks. CO thinks for a couple seconds then checks. I rub my head and check.

Ok. That was odd. I really felt that the CO was trying to checkraise the turn here, punishing the small blind to draw. I loathe the idea of giving a free card, but not as much as I loathe getting raised with only a few outs. I plan to fold to most river bets if a scare card comes.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Checked to me again. I bet. The small blind thinks for a few seconds and calls. The button thinks for a good five seconds and calls.

Results to follow. Comments welcome.

-Diplomat

*Earlier that night the small blind tried to shoot an angle on Gamblor, myself and another player when the feeder game broke. After that, he tried to shoot an angle to get his river bet back after I four-bet his aces on the river after making a runner-runner straight. I had the floor make him put the bet in. He was raging mad. The big blind is his buddy and hates me by association.

[PokerPrince]

The turn check-through makes me wanna vomit in my mouth. Anyways, my guess is you chop the pot with the SB.

PokerPrince

[Gamblor]

we semiargued about this hand, especially the turn check, for a solid 1/2 hour on the way home, and i finally came up with a coherent argument against a turn check: If you're behind and you bet, and if you get check-raised, can you find a fold here?

I don't think he's capable of checkraising worse Aces on the turn. Capping the flop is one thing, but on expensive streets players in that game are very tight.

[RaMz123]

I bet the turn and fold to any raise. Cant stand to give a free card if Im ahead, if anyone raises AT is probably way behind. Probably check behind most rivers.

[elysium]

hi diplomat

it's not a good idea to raise pre-flop here. the problem with raising is that only similar hands will call the raise, but with the poster in there, your raise has little chance of folding everyone out. additionally, the raise tends to muddy the water and interfere with your read in the later rounds.

you're not thinking again diplomat. you're plunging ahead again trying to bully your hand into victory instead of thinking it to victory. you've also been neglecting handreading.

diplomat, i can't kick you in the ast right now. i've got contractors running all over the place here, and yuck, i'm fat, and malaisy right now. i'll kick you around a little tommorow.

feelers diplomat. put on your feelers.

bye for now.

[haakee]

I'd say it'd be pretty hard to lay this down to a turn check-raise because the most likely holding for this guy is 86 once he does check-raise the turn. Remember, DcifrThs has trips/two-pair outs (some of which may not be clean if the other guy is on a flush draw) in a HUGE pot (14BB? if the blind calls on the turn and CO check-raises).

[elindauer]

You read your opponents on the flop as both holding either big hands or draws, with draws being most likely. Then the turn is a blank and they both check. At this point, your read of DRAW should be confirmed, and you should bet. I don't see how you can possibly check the turn given your thought process. Bet the turn. If you are check-raised, call, fold the river only if it's a very bad card for the draws you think you are up against. Most blank rivers you're making a crying call, but the pot is too big to fold for 1 bet against a player that is somewhat on tilt.

On the river, your value bet is very thin. After all, it looks like they both had draws and missed. You will win often when you bet and they both fold, but how often will you win when you actually get called? About the only hand they can hold that you beat and they will call with is a suited Qh and Axh. Yeah, they might have those hands, but AJ is also in the picture.

Hmmm... I was going to say that I think checking is better, but in light of the number of weak suited hands that can be out which you beat and may call, combined with the huge weakness shown when they both check the turn and river, combined with the fact that nobody decided to bluff at the river with a missed draw (making them a bit less likely and weak made hand a bit more likely), I like your river bet.

Good luck.
Eric

[joes28]

[ QUOTE ]
it's not a good idea to raise pre-flop here. the problem with raising is that only similar hands will call the raise, but with the poster in there, your raise has little chance of folding everyone out. additionally, the raise tends to muddy the water and interfere with your read in the later rounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really dont understand this. I think you have to figure that your hand is best here, so you should raise. Also, there is a chance that everyone will fold, though not likely, but i see it a lot in 30/60 on party. Only similar hands will call? I dont know about that, I could see the SB three betting A8s+ ,A9o+, 33+, KQ, and maybe even KJ, and I think that the CO would have raised any of these hands preflop. When the small blind just calls im thinking suited/unsuited connectors/one gappers, maybe Q10,QJ, JT,Ace small xs, Kxs, Qxs, Jxs stuff like that.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say it'd be pretty hard to lay this down to a turn check-raise because the most likely holding for this guy is 86 once he does check-raise the turn. Remember, DcifrThs has trips/two-pair outs (some of which may not be clean if the other guy is on a flush draw) in a HUGE pot (14BB? if the blind calls on the turn and CO check-raises).

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i agree but i wasn't in the hand...were you alluding to an ealier post or something?

i also think that the bet is bad if it costs you the pot those times you check and let a hand that would have folded hit...but it doesn't seem that there are too many hands like that out there....it does look like you'll be up against hands that wont fold b/c they have a good amount of outs and if he does c'r you here it looks like a worse 2pair which you must call against so its not a great spot to be. i personally dont mind the turn check all that much as if its checked to you again you can pretty profitably bet for value.

you're not giving up that much on the turn by checking vs. an ace and a big draw or a hand w/ outs b/c they look like they'll call given the action and you want to see a showdown or at least induce a bad call from a hand that would call to improve on the turn but fold to the river bet. those hands you have the same ev against either way.

so i dont mind the turn check all that much but i would probably bet it myself, call a raise and fold the river UI.

-Barron

[elysium]

hi joe

by similar hands i mean hands like KJo, QJo, etc. enough times to make calling pre-flop correct. maybe i'm not explaining it exactly right, but to fully explain why raising with ATo is wrong would take a detailed analysis of loose late position play.

on the surface it looks like diplomat's hand is best and therefore he should raise, but when the raise is being made to increase the size of the pot, the strength of the hand must be significantly stronger thsn the hands that call the raise. this is so because the raise makes the field play better than they otherwise would had the pot size been kept smaller. given the fact that the field of callers will be playing better and that there is a greater chance of a showdown, even though ATo may be best pre-flop, the best course of action for ATo may not be to raise. add to this the risk of having your ATo reraised from behind, and taking down the pot before the showdown soon gains greater merit. by keeping the pot smaller, you also give ATo a better chance to win unimproved.

this isn't to say that ATo isn't a worthy hand to raise with pre-flop in this situation, nor is it to say that the raise doesn't have value. it does. so why not raise? because you improve the playability of any hand that calls the raise and create a competitor where once you ruled the field. you also reduce the chances of getting away from the hand if things go awry.

never raise from the button with ATo or KJo or even KQo for that matter. don't raise from the CO with it either. don't be such a hothead. call fool, call. and don't try to scare people out with your raise with one of these hands either. your hand plays better when you call.