question for the masters.

[badbill7]

in thinkin about my game im finding definate situations im uncomfortable with.One in paricular is what to do with big offsuites in a small pot. Say you have ak,aq,aj,kq in late postion against blinds. you have raised preflop and flop misses you but is a rainbow and uncordinated.sb bets bb calls what do you do. You do know one thing if you catch any of your hand on turn you are ahead. Do we stretch our implied odds to try to get close enough to make a peel here or do we just automatically fold. What if one more limper pre flop and bb folds to bring our implied odds closer to home

[Carmine]

First off these situations are very board and player Dependant. In the situation you describe(IE: A/K turn puts you in front)you easily have the odds to peel with your 6 outer without even considering implied odds.

Six outs is 6.8:1 the pot is offering you 8:1.

[badbill7]

But all the books,people,ect tell us that you cant realy count overcards as six outs only about 1.5 a piece so i was giving about four outs to be generous since i knew if i hit i would have best hand.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
But all the books,people,ect tell us that you cant realy count overcards as six outs only about 1.5 a piece so i was giving about four outs to be generous since i knew if i hit i would have best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sentence confuses me. The reason we discount overcards is that we MIGHT NOT have the best hand even if we hit.

As for your situation, as he said, this is player and board dependent. Are there viable draws out there; would this guy bet with a small pair? with just overs? with nothing? What about the BB? Is he a calling station or would he have to have something here to call with you left to act?

Without reads to the contrary, I am inclined to fold and hope I get to see their hands for next time.

[winky51]

This is totally dependent on the flop.

Like if I have Ks Qh and the board contains 2 spades I am raising in position as long as I am getting 3 to 1 for my raise. Your 30% to catch a pair or the backdoor draw. You can check the turn.

If there is a 789 with 2 diamonds, I am folding the KQ.

Do you have pot odds to raise for the free card?
What are the chances both your overs and backdoors are viable?
How do your opponents bet?

These 3 need to be answered to make a determination.

[BigBrother]

[ QUOTE ]
But all the books,people,ect tell us that you cant realy count overcards as six outs only about 1.5 a piece so i was giving about four outs to be generous since i knew if i hit i would have best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two very different reasons to discount your overcard outs on different types of boards.

1) You might be reverse dominated and lose even more if you hit your hand, but make someone else 2-pair. In your example this could be the case if one of the blinds held A6 or KT on a T63r board.

2) You might make your hand but someone else makes a big draw like a straight or flush either on the same street as you or by sucking out later. This is generally more likely on a coordinated board like QJ9 or 2-suited.

Chances are, if the pot is small and 3-players, and you were the pfr, that a bet into you on the flop will come from someone who likes their hand. So unless you have a specific read you are generally better off waiting for a better time to get your chips in. Those reverse implied odds can be a bitch.