Pre-Flop Limp-Cap? - Page 2

ucfryan · #11 01-29-2005, 03:06 AM

Sorry but this is terrible advice. AJo is a raise from pretty much any position at the table @ Party, unless you're at an incredibly tight table with limpers in front (which isn't going to happen). Ditto to KQo.

As for the limp-cap, it's really read dependent but I've seen it quite a few times where instead of calling the 3-bet they just cap it to "take control" with any sort of hand. That being said, AJo isn't a hand you want to see 3-bet or capped, so it's a fold.

ClaytonN · #12 01-29-2005, 03:09 AM

Maybe you should take notice to the THREE limpers in front of him.

Sheesh.

ClaytonN · #13 01-29-2005, 03:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should take notice to the THREE limpers in front of him.

Sheesh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, that sounded a bit smartass...

Aaron W. · #14 01-29-2005, 03:28 AM

I'll let everyone else argue about the first AJo preflop decision.

I think you can see the flop on this one if you trust your postflop play (folding is not bad, either). BB's 3-bet means something, but the cap from UTG+1 is probably garbage. There are 13 SB in the pot, and it's only 2 to stay. I have a hard time believing that you're worse than 13% to win in this pot. Even in the bad case of being in a 4-way pot when you're dominated AND playing against reasonable hands AND one of your kickers is used up, you're 12% to win. In other cases, you might be as good as 20-22%. Lots of dead money in pot and a strong starting hand with position usually means call.

(Yes, reverse implied odds are in effect here, making things a little worse for you. That's why I leave the postflop play caveat in there. If you don't want to take your chances in such a high variance situation, then don't.)

I know that it looks scary, but you're in excellent position to face BB with two bets cold to feel him out if you flop favorably (if UTG+1 keeps his agressive play going).

wrto4556 · #15 01-29-2005, 03:29 AM

It's not a tight game though. Limpers in a loose game is the norm. They could have 63o as likely as AA. Raise AJo and KQo in any loose game...from any position...no matter how many limpers there are.

Shillx · #16 01-29-2005, 04:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I looked it over again, and it occured to me he's playing 8 handed in a party game. oops.

ten handed in a PS game, and I think twice about even playing AJo unless the PTF is abnormally high. Maybe this is the wrong way to approach it? I'm not a fan of AJo and ATo in general from EP and MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should learn to become a fan of it. I had some dude convinced today playing live that everytime I raised preflop, I had AJ. It is a damn good hand. Mucking it in an unraised pot is taboo round here.

Brad

BruinEric · #17 01-29-2005, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you play the SSH tight chart? I assume the table is loose until proven otherwise...and it's hardly ever the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking to change your mind, but the reason I play the SSHE "tight" chart is that the average Party table usually meets the "tight" chart criteria, which is: "3-5 players on Average to the flop." (page 80).

SSHE "loose" chart criteria is "6-8 players on average to the flop." There are certainly family pots, etc. But on average, I'm seeing 4 or 5 players to the flop. When a table drops below 40% VP$IP, I usually leave.

For others watching - spare me the lecture on chart reliance. I've already read it and understand the lecture. At this stage in my development, I find it helpful to use SSHE starting hand guidance as a baseline and then as I learn where deviation is appropriate, I experiment.

BruinEric · #18 01-29-2005, 01:53 PM

Okay ladies, here's how the hand played out. I appreciate all the thoughts on this thread.

You've gotta love the winning hand here. But what is obvious is that my hand was dominated, and it's not like it was a "sneak attack." The guy made me face two cold and I gobbled it up.

Key factor: "Recent memory." What I mean is, just a few hands ago on another table, I was limp-re-rasied (but called with AKo) by a turd with J8s. I had also seen a Limp Re-Raiser at a prior table who was often doing it with garbage. I'd started to believe the "move" was machismo and not a sign of a monster hand.

Without reads, I think next time, I fold pre-flop. With a read the guy is an action player, I will probably cold-call again with that much money in the pot. I'm just not convinced a limp-re-raise is a sign of true strength even 80% of the time.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, MP1 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero folds, UTG calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (straight, nine high).
UTG+1 has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (one pair, fives).
Outcome: UTG wins 16.25 BB.

BruinEric · #19 01-29-2005, 02:47 PM

NFW -- I was just LIMP-CAPPED AGAIN this morning and AGAIN I held AJ! Whoa.

This time, I folded. Wait till you get a load of what I was RR with and limp-capped with. This is why I'm NOT convinced limp-capping is a sign of true strength. (Not a loss-whine story, I still woulda lost the hand)

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 5 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB 3-bets, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero folds, Button folds, SB calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

River: (9.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has 8h Kd (high card, king).
BB has 5h 5s (one pair, fives).
UTG has 6c 7c (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: UTG wins 9.50 BB.

maryfield48 · #20 01-29-2005, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
NFW -- I was just LIMP-CAPPED AGAIN this morning and AGAIN I held AJ! Whoa.

This time, I folded. Wait till you get a load of what I was RR with and limp-capped with. This is why I'm NOT convinced limp-capping is a sign of true strength. (Not a loss-whine story, I still woulda lost the hand)

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 5 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB 3-bets, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero folds, Button folds, SB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a limp-cap.