God and logic

[MagnoliasFM]

Hello. For some reason I was led to this forum tonight (I normally post on other 2+2 forums, and have never visited SMP). I read a couple of the posts where smart atheists like renowned poker author David Sklansky debated their views on God.

As a Christian, I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions about God and point out a few fallacies that will hopefully get some of you thinking in a direction of seeking the truth, (which is what we all want) instead of running around in logical circles.

There is only one God, and he has certain characteristics. If you are talking about a God that does not have these characteristics, you are not talking about God; you're just talking about some made-up hero, and are falsely labeling him as "God." God is all-knowing, all-powerful, holy, and just, among other things. If you say things like

"...we did statistical studies regarding metaphysical claims and understood how physics pretty much proves that everything that happens is not interefered with by non natural forces," -- David Sklansky

you aren't talking about God. God created physics and all science for that matter. It'd be like Mario telling Luigi "There's no way we were programmed--look, I can never jump higher than this ::jump::, so it proves that no force outside our game can make me jump higher."

I believe in a God who revealed Himself to me in an absolute way, and I believe that the Bible is God-breathed and absolutely true, in the same way that you believe 2+2=4 is an absolute truth. I cannot by my own power, nor do I have the right to, convince you of any of this on my own because I'm just a human like you. However, God can, and will, if you seek Him.

I know a lot of you have questions about God and you feel that because you cannot fully understand Him, He cannot be real to you. But remember, just because you don't know the answer to something, doens't mean an answer does not exist. In fact, there is ONE ANSWER, and only one answer to questions such as "How did the universe and humans come about?" No matter what you believe, or don't believe, logically, there has to be one absolutely true answer, whether you know, don't know, care, or don't care. Just because you don't see contrary evidence does not mean you are correct in your view. Many intelligent people have been fooled into thinking one thing when something else is true. The only thing that cannot be disputed is absolute truth, and anything that contradicts it cannot be true. If you are not 100% sure about your view, you should seek the truth. If you think it is impossible to be 100% sure about anything, ask yourself how, then, is it possible to be sure of your uncertainty?

Whenever you ask questions about God, ask yourself this: Are you asking earnestly, to seek the truth? If so, you will be led towards the truth. If you are not earnest, and asking rhetorical questions trying to prove your own point, you will not benefit yourself in any way. If all your questions about God were answered, would you be able to believe in God? If your answer is "no" then your questions are more like statements of your own faith than honest questions about God.

Lastly, before I fall asleep, I would like to say that if you find any flaws in my reasoning (which is very likely, since I am imperfect), it does not, in any way, disprove the existence or identity of God. I along with any other Christian on this board am fallable and make mistakes all the time. Our hope is that we may point you in the right direction to seek for yourself what we have obtained through irresistable divine revelation.

Coming to Christ may seem like a paradox--whether or not you will find God has been known for eternity, but since you do not know, you must seek. Read the Gospel and ask God to give you an understanding of Him and His plan for your eternal salvation. Do not close your mind to the truth though it may be uncomfortable. Seek, and you will find.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello. For some reason I was led to this forum tonight (I normally post on other 2+2 forums, and have never visited SMP). I read a couple of the posts where smart atheists who should know better like renowned poker author David Sklansky debated their views on God.

As a Christian, I'd like to add a few of my own misconceptions about God and point out a few of the ways in which fallacies will hopefully get some of you thinking in a direction of seeing things my way , (which is what I want) instead of running around in logical circles because I still have no way to combat reason and rationality, at the end of the day.

There is only one [Insert Deity Here] , and he has certain characteristics. If you are talking about a [Insert Same Deity Here] that does not have these characteristics, you are not talking about [Insert Same Deity Here] ; you're just talking about some made-up [Insert Other Thing Here] , and are falsely labeling him as [Insert Initial Deity Here] . [Initial Deity] is all-knowing, all-powerful, holy, and just, among other things because there is no other possible way to explain [Deity] which does not destroy this beautiful concept which I so firmly believe to be true. . If you say things like

"...we did statistical studies regarding metaphysical claims and understood how physics pretty much proves that everything that happens is not interefered with by non natural forces," -- David Sklansky

you aren't talking about God. God created physics and all science for that matter. It'd be like the church telling Galileo that there is no way he can be correct because God says otherwise. We all know how that one turned out don't we?

I believe in a God who revealed Himself to me in an absolute way, and I believe that the Bible is God-breathed and absolutely true, in the same way that you believe 2+2=4 is an absolute truth. (I don't believe in Lorentz Transformations, BTW)

I cannot by my own power, nor do I have the right to, convince you of any of this on my own because of a lack of genuine convincing evidence, which, if I could I would fabricate, but you're too smart for that. . However, God can, and will, if you seek Him and the only way to seek Him is to blindly believe. Otherwise you will be caught in the impossible trap of rational thought and find yourself at a loss to explain your position to others who have not yet been brainwashed without resorting to ridiculous analogies.

I know a lot of you have questions about the origins of God and you feel that because no one can get their stories straight , He cannot be real to you. But remember, just because you don't know the answer to something, doens't mean an answer does not exist. In fact, I know the answer, and here it is: there is ONE ANSWER, and only one answer to questions such as "How did the universe and humans come about?" I can't explain it very well, so you'll have to take my word for it.

No matter what you believe, or don't believe, logically, there has to be one absolutely true answer, whether you know, don't know, care, or don't care. But I can't prove it logically. You just have to believe it.

Just because you don't see any evidence does not mean you are incorrect in your view. Many intelligent people have figured out that they had been fooled into thinking one thing when something else is true.

Here is a great circular logic argument with no basis in reality for you:

The only thing that cannot be disputed is absolute truth, and anything that contradicts it cannot be true. If you are not 100% sure about your view, you should seek the truth. If you think it is impossible to be 100% sure about anything, ask yourself how, then, is it possible to be sure of your uncertainty?

Whenever you ask questions about God, ask yourself this: Are you asking earnestly, willing to suspend all critical analysis, to seek the truth? If so, you will be led towards the truth. If you are not brainwashed enough , and asking rhetorical questions of those of us who are brainwashed trying to prove your own point, you will not benefit yourself in any way, other than to entertain yourself with the idea that otherwise intelligent people can be taught to make very basic mistakes.

If all your questions about God were answered articulately, accurately, consistently, clearly, and convincingly with enough evidence to demonstrate significant probability of being true, , would you be able to believe in God?

If your answer is "no" then your questions are more like statements of your own faith than honest questions about God.

Lastly, before I fall asleep, I would like to say that when you find the many flaws in my reasoning (which is inevitable since I simply believe blindly and without any understanding of your position ), it does not, in any way, disprove or prove the existence or identity of God.

I along with any other Christian on this board am fallable and make mistakes all the time so don't point them out to me because I already know about them and don't care. Just believe that what I say is true and stop questioning it because I know with 100% certainty, even though I admit that I make mistakes.

My hope is that I may point you in the right direction to seek for yourself what I have obtained through irresistable divine revelation (well what other explanation can there be?) , which as every fallible person knows is not reproducible by drugs or other techniques. We have eliminated all other possible causes of these experiences through conclusive, reproducible studies which concluded that these experiences are, in fact, caused by God.

Coming to Christ may seem like a paradox--whether or not you will find God has been known for eternity (even before the birth of Christ, himself) , but since you do not know, you must seek.

Read the Gospel (This is, historically speaking, our best initial brainwashing technique) and ask God to give you an understanding of Him and His plan for your eternal salvation. Do not close your mind to the truth though it may be uncomfortable. (No one said brainwashing was always easy)

Seek, and you will find. It usually works in the end, though.

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FYP

[SpearsBritney]

You have not explained what this "god" does, or is supposed to do. Judging from your post, he just sits dormant, and is indistinguishable from the laws of physics. From that standpoint, whether "he" does or does not exist in this "man-like" form, watching over us, is irrelevant. No?

If not, what makes you so sure "he" exists, and what does "he" do for you? Does just knowing "he" is not an "it" make you feel better about your life?

Anyway, I'm happy your life is going well, and that god has revealed "himself" to you. Maybe you can talk to him about war, disease, poverty, famine, murder, torture, rape, etc., because it seems while he was attending to your needs, he has overlooked some very serious issues.

[chezlaw]

Your title is god and logic. Are you getting to the second part any time soon?

chez

[MagnoliasFM]

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You have not explained what this "god" does, or is supposed to do. Judging from your post, he just sits dormant, and is indistinguishable from the laws of physics. From that standpoint, whether "he" does or does not exist in this "man-like" form, watching over us, is irrelevant. No?

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God is the ruler of the universe, he created you and me and wants to spend eternity with us in heaven. Because we are imperfect and have sins, he cannot just accept us as we are, since he is just and must punish sin. To solve this, he sent himself in human form to earth to die, become sin, and pay the price for us. If you really want to know more, read the Bible.

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If not, what makes you so sure "he" exists, and what does "he" do for you? Does just knowing "he" is not an "it" make you feel better about your life?


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I am sure he exists because he revealed himself to me and he indwells in me in the form of the Holy Spirit. He strengthens, comforts, teaches, loves, and ultimately controls my life. Knowing that when I die, I will face an eternity living in heaven is the most reassuring feeling in the world.

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, I'm happy your life is going well, and that god has revealed "himself" to you. Maybe you can talk to him about war, disease, poverty, famine, murder, torture, rape, etc., because it seems while he was attending to your needs, he has overlooked some very serious issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He can't "overlook" something. Just because if YOU were God you'd put an end to poverty, etc. does not mean the one real God must do as you would in order to be God. The truth is, suffering in this world is a direct cause of the sinful nature of humans (greed, etc). If God's hand did not protect us our world would fall apart and everyone would die. If he wanted, he could end all of the things you think are "problems" in this world, but that is not part of his plan. Wars, diseases, and poverty are things that affect people's temporary lives on earth, but what is much more important is your eternal soul, which will either live with God or forever separated from him after your earthly body dies. If you earnestly seek the answer to your question, this website, http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs..._suffering.asp explains it a lot better than I can.

Anyways, I am happy and you can be too. Don't just give up on learning about God because of some of your misconceptions. That would be a tragedy.

[chezlaw]

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I am sure he exists because he revealed himself to me

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So before this revelation happened you didn't believe in him. Would you agree that anyone who hasn't had such a revelation is also correct not to believe in him.

chez

[TorpedoBreath]

"Knowing that when I die, I will face an eternity living in heaven is the most reassuring feeling in the world."

Cool, you're in. Now logic would suggest you wouldn't want to screw up your good deeds to date by risking one more minute in this life if you've already earned your ticket to eternal salvation, no?

[MagnoliasFM]

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I am sure he exists because he revealed himself to me

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So before this revelation happened you didn't believe in him. Would you agree that anyone who hasn't had such a revelation is also correct not to believe in him.

chez

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No I wouldn't. Before it was revealed to me that Santa Claus did not exist, I was still INCORRECT in believing that he existed.

[Peter666]

The Galileo comment is false. He was not put under house arrest for his scientific work. He was put under house arrest for formenting rebellion in the Papal States during a critical time. His books insulted the current Pope and were very scandalous. He was allowed to continue his research and given the provisions to do so. And his "jail" was a rather nice villa.

To say Galileo was persecuted by the Church is a misnomer and just another bit of really bad Protestant inspired mishistory.

[MagnoliasFM]

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"Knowing that when I die, I will face an eternity living in heaven is the most reassuring feeling in the world."

Cool, you're in. Now logic would suggest you wouldn't want to screw up your good deeds to date by risking one more minute in this life if you've already earned your ticket to eternal salvation, no?

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Going to heaven has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with good deeds. No one can ever earn his way into heaven, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That is why God sent his son Jesus to die and pay for our sins. By living my life I am not risking my salvation at all. If it had anything to do with good deeds I would've been drawing dead a long time ago.