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Old 12-16-2002, 04:05 PM
Kevin J Kevin J is offline
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Default Poorly Played?

I'm not sure why, but I've been playing some of the worst poker I've played in quite a while. To make matters worse, it's also the longest such period. 3 straight sessions without an "A" game showing up. So take that into consideration here...

A very skilled player (who's only discernable weakness IMO is a propensity to tilt), raised from the cutoff (I believed on tilt). Folded to me in the sb holding Jd,Td. Like I said.. I've been running a little bad and a "B" game is all I've been able to muster these last 3 days. I couldn't bring myself to make it 3 bets out of position. Even though I thought him to be on tilt, this cutoff is skilled... Had position... And is capable of outplaying me on my best day. On the one hand, I didn't want the confrontation. However, I thought my hand too good to fold given the wide mix of hands he might be playing. The bb was not too strong of a player, so I didn't feel the need to get him out. As a matter of fact, I thought it might be better to leave him in there with the type of hand I had. I just called. The bb folded. Heads-up.

The flop came Kc,Qd,8s. I checked, he bet, I (check)/raised, he called.

The turn was an 8d pairing the board, but also giving me a flush draw to go with my up and down str8 draw. I bet, he raised, and I called.

The river was a 4d. I bet, he raised, I called and my flush beat out his A8 for trip eights.

Later that evening, he mentioned he couldn't believe I bet the turn. ??? I know I haven't been able to rise above my "B" game lately, but I need a little re-affirmation here. Would any 20-40 player on this forum NOT consider a follow-through bet on the turn automatic given the action (and description) I provide? It gets tough to think clearly in the midst of a 3 day funk, but I thought this hand (at least post-flop) was somewhat routine. If not, maybe I've found a problem. Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-16-2002, 04:46 PM
deadbart deadbart is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

You did well.
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Old 12-16-2002, 04:58 PM
Robk Robk is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

Hey Kevin, I'm not a 20 40 player, but my post will at least get you back on the top of the board [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I'm not such a big fan of checkraising here unless your opponent will fold ace high in this spot a lot of the time, which I doubt he will. Making that move here is what put you in the bad spot on the turn, IMO. But given that you checkraised the flop I agree it is mandatory to lead the turn and try and pick up the pot, even if you hadn't picked up the diamond draw. If you check you're probably facing a bet almost
%100 of the time here anyway, I think. Also why not reraise the river? I don't think it's likely he's putting you on a diamond draw after your aggression early in the hand.
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Old 12-16-2002, 04:59 PM
sleepyjoe sleepyjoe is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

I'm not a big fan of the check-raise on the flop. I probably bet out and if I get raised then I'll need to determine to raise again or call. Raising again can be a deceptive play, in that if you hit your straight he may give you some pretty good action, not thinking you would have 3-bet on a draw. But a lot of people would check-raise the flop in that situation so it's clearly not a mistake.

Everything else seemed fine, especially betting out on the turn. I think it's almost an automatic bet in that spot.
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Old 12-16-2002, 06:01 PM
bomblade bomblade is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

I think a follow up bet is a must. I think the hand was played fine.
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Old 12-16-2002, 06:11 PM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

I would have considered checkraising the turn to represent the 8 with all those outs.
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Old 12-16-2002, 06:15 PM
M.B.E. M.B.E. is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

"Also why not reraise the river? I don't think it's likely he's putting you on a diamond draw after your aggression early in the hand."

Kevin really can't threebet the river because of the chance his opponent has KK or QQ for a full house. Also he might have an ace-high flush.

I don't understand why the opponent told Kevin "I can't believe you bet the turn". Maybe the opponent mistakenly believed that he had three-bet the flop. Checkraising the flop and betting out the turn against a preflop raiser is a standard play.
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Old 12-16-2002, 06:28 PM
glen glen is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

I would be inclined to do this if I were three-bet on the flop. As M.B.E. pointed, it's standard to bet out after the flop check-raise. If three-bet on the flop, though, one can check-raise with fifteen outs when an innocuous card like the 4 comes on the turn. Even if you get three-bet on the turn, you can check-fold the river, as opposed to betting out when you miss. While the river is usually an automatic bet when one check-raises the turn, how many would check fold the river if a blank comes against this particular opponent, in light of the flop and turn play? Or, would the size of the pot mandate a bet in case he held the same hand, which, feasibly could be played the same way?
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  #9  
Old 12-16-2002, 07:35 PM
skp skp is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

Preflop, I don't consider three betting to be that much better than coldcalling. I would often 3 bet but I would also often just coldcall. The thing here is that given the initial raiser's position and current disposition, this hand is not going to be over with early. Neither of you should fold on the flop regradless of whether you 3 bet or coldcall preflop. The two of you will generally see at least the turn card, if not the river.

One of the great values of 3 betting preflop is to allow you to steal on the flop or on the turn. Here, that value is somewhat negated by the situation i.e. you know he is on tilt and therefore, you will not fold on the flop. As for him, he is on tilt and might even know that you know that he is on tilt and therefore he too will not fold on the flop.

Put in an extra bet on the flop if you want. 3 bets preflop and 1 bet on the flop is the same as 2 bets preflop and 2 bets on the flop. In certain circumstances, you will be in better position on the turn having 3 bet preflop. In other circumstances (like this one), you are better off on the turn by showing aggression on the flop rather than preflop.

There is value in 3 betting preflop iin order to get it heads-up i.e., knock out the bb. But you will be out of position against a tilter who is probably going to play the flop hard - whether or not it helped him- and it's pretty easy for you to throw in the towel with Jack high. But if you checkraise the flop when it comes down, say Q54 or something, his level of concern will be greater than what it would have been had you 3 bet preflop (part of this is because he will assume that your 3 bet represents an Ace high unpaired hand a vast majority of the time).

Sorry for the rambling post. Too lazy to reorganize it.
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  #10  
Old 12-16-2002, 07:54 PM
skp skp is offline
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Default Re: Poorly Played?

The problem with that is that you might miss out on the opportunity to take the pot right there. He might call you on the river with Ace high having put you on a busted straight draw (assuming a river blank). Plus, he might just have a king which he ain't folding and you are now putting in two bets on the turn when you only have 15 outs. Granted, that's a lot of outs but you are still an underdog to a King or any one pair hand (like Qx) that he is not folding.

In general, I find that it does not pay to get overly aggressive on the turn in heads-up situations (particularly when you give up position). Turn raises are best reserved for multiway pots.
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