"A Pair of Fours" Again

[brad]

pretty sure its finnegans wake. joyce. could be wrong.

[elindauer]

I find all this talk about a value bet here crazy. I notice that conveniently no one answers the question of what they plan to do if they get check-raised. Call or fold?

If you are going to bet this hand... where does it end? 33, 22, AK... they're all essentially the same hand in this context. Are you betting AK for valure here? Are you laying it down when you get check-raised? Is there any hand which is too strong to bluff with but too weak to value bet? Name it.

Now, if your assumption is that your opponents suck and they call with everything and never bluff raise, then fine. You can make assumptions about your opponents which will make any bet correct. But to bet this as your default play against tough opposition? That can't be right. I think.

My 2 cents.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Mason,

I agree with your mode of thought here.

On the flop, our implied odds are very good provided if you are trying to draw to a set that is live an there isn't a pocket 8's or pocket 9's out there.

The turn bet is a must because the original preflop raiser didn't raise on the flop with his overcards and everyone else just called giving you extremely valuable information that they were all drawing. Most likely someone probably had an 8 in their hand and folded, and almost assurely no one had a 9.

River check is good because you can only be called if your beat or remotely check-raised bluffed.

I like to add a comment to the turn bet. It's a good one too because you have good position, information that everyone else could be drawing and your bet forces others out. As well the pot is definitely worth of a big bet on the turn should your hand indeed stand up.

But all the guess work aside, I think many people fail to underestimate the importance of implied odds when it matters. As such is the case with Mason's hand he is getting 19-1 on the flop provided the raiser does not raise and like Mason mentioned even if the button does raise Mason still has a good chance of being the best hand on the flop.

But if Mason makes the set on the turn he will most likely get paid off greater than the 22-1 odds he needs to make the hand worthy.

My only question is know that their are so many callers out in the field and knowing that most likely a diamond and/or straight draw is possible, would it be as wise to draw for a set if many other hands could redraw out on your set.

Thanks.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

I think it has more to do with the fact that many posters on these forums do understand hold 'em fairly well. Most players when they start put way too much emphasis on the first two cards. The better and more experienced players realize that once you play the first round fairly well, it's the later streets where the real profit is.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi anatta:

David had further conversations with both Huck and John Hennigan, and once they understood the exact circumstances of the hand they both agreed that the call was probably correct.

As for Negraneau, I'm not sure if he ever did come around. But I suspect that even he would agree with the call now.

Best wishes,
Mason

[bad beetz]

I think the "The Sound and the Fury," sucked ass.

streams of consciousness from the retarded. I love reading that.

Oh, wait, you're reading this, right?

I don't give a f*ck how "clever" it was. It's like the movie adaptation. It sucks, but it's supposed to be "clever," so no one admits that it was f-ing boring.

[skp]

Yeah...too bad our stays don't overlap...I am gone on the 6th am. Next time, bud...