Amazing Quadruple Check-Raise in 30-60 (long)

[Ulysses]

So, what about the following pattern. It seems like I see it very regularly. Is it cheating?

Two guys who know each other sit next to each other. Non-regular player sits down and raises pre-flop. Both guys call. Flop is rags. Checked to the raiser, who bets, call, call. Turn could be another rag or a scary card, that say puts a straight on the board. Checked to the raiser, who bets. Guy #1 raises. Guy #2 3-bets. Raiser folds. River comes, check, check. Guy #1 shows bottom pair. Guy #2 mucks. Or something like that.

I see this happening all the time. It never bothers me when both players are guys who are just super-aggressive all the time. But I get a bad feeling when it's two guys who only turn aggressive when they sit next to each other.

The other thing that typically happens with these tandems is they'll open-raise and 3-bet, then go limp after it gets heads up. That doesn't affect me much, since most hands I'd play are 4-betting hands in that scenario. However, it can't be great for the game when non-regulars see the QTo take it down after 3-betting.

Any thoughts on this kind of play?

[deadbart]

The problem with this thinking is that a flop of 223 actually hit an overpair quite well. Of course, most people assume AK instead of a pair in this situation, but that just means you get paid off.

[Clarkmeister]

"but that just means you get paid off".........

.......if you have a pair.

I don't know about you, but it sure seems I get dealt (and raise with) unpaired big cards far more often than I get dealt big pairs. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Of course 223 is wonderful when you have the goods. The joy of poker is that 70% of the time you airballed entirely, they know it, and start throwing checkraises at you with zilch to see exactly how serious you are. With all the money in the pot, who can blame them?

[Jimbo]

deadbart,

I suppose you have not read enough posts by Andyfox to appreciate the humor contained within my post. He states if he looks at one card and it is a deuce that he folds. I believe if his first card is an ace he raises. That makes it a 4/51 shot that he has a deuce in his hand preflop and only 2 chances out of 47 that the flop hit his hand hard.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Michael. Your opponents were clueless gamblers who think that playing hyperaggressively against a solid player wins the money. Apparently, it never dawned on either one of them that if you did in fact have an unpaired Ace, and no Q hits the river, they were drawing stone cold dead to your A,K. The comment about you laying an Ace down on the river was really naive and extremely misguided to say the least. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] In retrospect, do you really think another 60 bucks on the turn gets these guys off the hand.? NO....There is nothing you could have done in my opinion. I just don't see that a 4 bet gets them off at that point- there is too much money in the pot. This is an example of bad players getting extremely lucky. It's what keeps them coming back and keeps us in the chips. However, this was the "beat of the week" for sure. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] Also, there is no way these jokers were cheating, because cheating requires some thought and intelligent planning. LGPG, Babe [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

[andyfox]

To set the record straight: I will fold almost 100% of the time when my first card is a deuce. I will raise sometimes when everyone has folded to me in the cut-off or the button when I look at one card and it is an Ace. I will sometimes do some things that even I don't know what they are due to poor vision. This adds an element of randomness into my otherwise A-B-C-ish tight aggressive pre-flop game. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

When the flop is 3-2-2, I win with a bet on the flop more often than the average player in my game because they are unsuspecting that I have K-J or 9-5 or 8-7.

[tewall]

"I will sometimes do some things that even I don't know what they are due to poor vision."

Does this mean you sometimes get pleasantly suprised (and unpleasantly) when the dealer pushes the pot?

[Ed S.]

My thoughts exactly. Why not 4 bet it on each street they 3 bet you? You raised..pre flop... they called. They check to you on flop you bet...check raise , check raise and you should cap it here. Then a blank on the turn and they will check it again and you bet. Now if they check raise you again then I don't know what they are staying with. But I would just call since you may be up against a set from both of them. But that didn't happen. I think you have to 4 bet the flop, because you need to see if they are just trying to push you off your hand. I have seen people do this by regulars at a 20-40 game that I was watching and pushing people off hands. If you just call then you may be giving them more reason to draw out on you when your already getting the best of it. I like to pound pound pound until people show me otherwise or until I get a feeling that I should slow down and just call. But like this forum and 2+2 books say, your better off raising or folding rather than just calling in alot of situations. But there are times to just call it down. This however I don't think is one of them. Especially on the Flop. You need to 4 bet the flop.


Ed S.

[Boris]

Nice bad beat story. I've played in Bellagio games (30-60 and up) 4 times recently and I'm beginning to think that Vegas has the best poker games. This story only reinforces my opinion. Basically you have a couple pros in the game and the rest are passive, live players who are fairly easy to read. The games are lower standard deviation and the rake is alot cheaper than California.

[anatta]

I think those guys got lucky on the end and you played it fine.