Interesting/Debatable 20-40 Play

[MichaelD]

Interesting/Debatable 20-40 Play

I played this hand earlier this evening in a loose 20-40 game.

There are two limpers to me and I am on the button with the A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . While this is a hand I will sometimes raise in this situation, I decided not too in this particular instance. In truth, both limpers were solid players, and I really did not want to build the pot so big as to make it correct for players to come at me if I happen to flop a dead ace or if I happen to hit a 10 for top pair.

My image was very tight at this table and I was hoping to take advantage of that after the flop rather than before the flop.

Both blinds call/check and we see the flop 5 handed. The flop come 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . The small blind checks, the big blind bets, one limper calls, the other folds, I call, and the small blind calls.

The turn brings the J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] giving me an additional 6 outs. The board now reads 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . The small blind checks, the big blind bets, limper folds, I now raise as a semi-bluff hoping to win the pot right here. The small blind folds, the big blind calls.

The river brings the 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] giving me the seconds nuts. The big blind bets into me and I naturally raise. He called and my hand was good. He did not show, but I am guessing he may have had a hand such as 10J and bet the flop on the open ended straight draw.

Anyway, I got a bit of a lecture on how bad I play, a few comments from others at the table about how lucky I am, and the very nice bonus of unlimited action from this player for the rest of the evening. He bad beat me on a later hand, and then proceeded to slow roll me on the hand, but basically he burned through 3 racks in 90 minutes after this particular hand.

While I raise this hand pre-flop many times, as I mentioned earlier, I was fortunate here to be able to use the semi-bluff raise on the turn as an effective tool to get an unwarranted amount of action over the session from a player who normally would not give such action. This is something I have been experimenting with lately and have found the results to be favorable. If the blinds are extremely tight or exceptionally skilled, I always raise a hand such as this on the button as I do not want to let tight/skilled players in the blinds see the flop for free or for half of a bet if I am going to play the hand. In this case, the blinds were both only average or a bit above average and I got a lot more value here by not raising.

Has anyone else found a strategy such as this to be more profitable than always raising a hand such as this on the button? I know it is a highly debatable play and am interested in hearing what others thoughts are relative to their experiences in similar situations.

All thoughts and comments welcome and appreciated.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[Kevin J]

Pre-flop-

Solid players, not solid players... I think you should just about ALWAYS raise this hand from the button against two limpers. None of the reasons you gave not to, outweigh the reasons to raise. IMO-

After this flop, I don't think you can go too wrong no matter how you play it.

On a side note: I was hoping to see a hand from last Monday's session... I heard you put on a REAL clinic! [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

[sam h]

"In truth, both limpers were solid players, and I really did not want to build the pot so big as to make it correct for players to come at me if I happen to flop a dead ace or if I happen to hit a 10 for top pair."

I don't think there is anything wrong with varying your play and calling in this situation every once in a while, but I don't understand the rationale. You want a big pot if you flop top pair top kicker or what is likely the best ace.

I would raise the flop, but since you didnt, I think raising the turn is a good play.

[danj]

I find that pre-flop pot size manipulation is a concept that many players don't think about when entering the pot - I find it especially important when playing against very good player and very poor players. I never want to give very good players the right odds to draw out nor do I want to give the same for the oblivious bad players. I think this failure to understand pre-flop pot size manipulation is a reason why higher limit players don't fare as well in lower limit games.

Anyway, back to your hand. I think that the standard button raise is overdone by some solid players. Most players at the table recognize the play especially in that game. The solid players will not check to you after the flop or may check raise you if they hit any piece of that flop. Pre-flop, the solid players may actually think that they have the better starting hand depending on where they limped in from and the fact that they are limping into a short handed situation. The average to poor blinds are going to call your button raise with ANY suited cards, unsuited connectors and one-gappers, etc. As you stated, your raise will only give the players proper odds to draw out on you. In certain situations, I'll make a verbal comment about the button raise, if I want the poor to average blinds in the hand with me. Since you know that you can outplay your opponents after the flop, you know that you can squeeze those extra bets out from the players on the turn and river, and you have position, I think that it is correct to vary your play as you did in that particular situation and limp in from the button with your hand. The other benefit from that play is that the solid players will give your button raises a little more respect - or at least it will slow them down some. In other words, I like your play.

[astroglide]

just to clarify, they berated you simply because you didn't raise preflop? how does this put a guy on tilt?

[Swiss Cheese]

I like the limp on the button, It gives you options and doesn't tie you to a hand as easily. I feel as though this raise is dependent on your limpers and your blinds, if any of the players are going to make you show your hand if they catch any part of the flop then I believe that a call is your play. If they are players you can move then by all means it is a raising situation.

Swiss Cheese

[Dynasty]

I find that pre-flop pot size manipulation is a concept that many players don't think about when entering the pot

The best way to manipulate pot size is to make the pot bigger by raising with your best hands.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Michael, you noted : "If the blinds are extremely tight or exceptionally skilled, I always raise a hand such as this on the button as I do not want to let tight/skilled players in the blinds see the flop for free or for half of a bet if I am going to play the hand. In this case, the blinds were both only average or a bit above average and I got a lot more value here by not raising."

If you can outplay the blinds after the flop, your theory about not raising to allow them in makes some sense. BUT..Since even "unskilled" blinds can hit a flop, I think you must be extremely careful as to what hands you will call with vs. raise with on the button. Obviously, hands which welcome a volume pot would be more suited to limping vs. raising and your suited ace would be one of them. So, I think the answer is that "it depends" on the hand you hold and how many players are already in. In fact, I think that these variables are more important than the skill level of the blinds. The criticism of the others is irrelevant and should only work to your advantage. I doubt that anyone who knows you well would label you a weak player. LGPG, Babe [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

[Soh]

...he burned through 3 racks in 90 minutes...

I think basically this is what you wanted to say about this hand.

Soh

[deadbart]

Dynasty is right on this.

You don't want to give good players or bad players the odds to draw out on you? Sounds like you don't like being drawn out on, but being drawn out on more often isn't necessarily less profitable. Your hand is very likely best, you have the best position, and you want to charge the blinds. Raising is almost always right here unless one of the limpers is so tight that they probably have you beat.