Middle pair flops the nuts

NYCNative · #1 12-19-2005, 04:53 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) converter

UTG (t1840)
MP1 (t1370)
MP2 (t1485)
CO (t2740)
Button (t1470)
SB (t2995)
Hero (t1600)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 raises to t100, 3 folds, SB calls t85, Hero calls t70.

Flop: (t300) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets t200, SB calls t200, Hero raises to t800, MP1 folds, SB calls t600.

Turn: (t2100) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t700 (All-In), SB calls t700.

River: (t3500) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3500

I would lead that flop just about 100% of the time against one player but against two I assumed that someone would bet it and I could checkraise. After the raise was called, I felt that any non-club on the turn was worth a push.

jeffraider · #2 12-19-2005, 05:50 AM

Second nuts. Is this a standard 1500-chip call preflop though?

SammyKid11 · #3 12-19-2005, 05:50 AM

Not to trifle with you on semantics...but on this flop, 77 is not the nuts. 86 is the nuts.

As for your line...
1) I'd fold preflop. You're seriously only going to play this the 12% of the time that you flop a set...you can't play 77 for overpair value against a raise, EVEN when your sevens ARE an overpair (which is rare). About the only other time you're going to call a flop bet without a set is when you flop an open-ended straight draw (cause a 7 really isn't even high enough to chase a 4-on-the-board flush). So what, let's be generous and say you'll stay to the turn 20% of the time with your 77. That means you need to be getting at least 4-to-1 on your preflop call. You're only getting about 3.28-to-1. Plus you're out of position against the raiser. SO...I think it's a losing proposition.

2) When you do flop your set, you look around and see a draw-rich board. You need to bet that. What you're hoping for is that the preflop raiser raises out SB...you call the raise and either push or check/push the turn. Instead what you've done is allow SB to call the initial flop bet with proper odds if he's got either a flush or an OESD (both are very decent possibilities). After he's called the initial bet, your raise isn't big enough for flush draws to properly fold. If you're gonna check-raise...with this stack, I'd make it check-push.

Since you didn't, I suppose your turn push is fine, though villain could easily have a straight and beat you here. But there's nothing else you can do...you can't check and give a free club to beat you, and I think you're really hard-pressed to bet/fold.

bones · #4 12-19-2005, 06:09 AM

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Second nuts. Is this a standard 1500-chip call preflop though?

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3rd nuts.

NYCNative · #5 12-19-2005, 06:21 AM

Yeah, top set... Posting at 5 AM sucks...

Is it really such a bad play to call t70 into a t230 pot with a ton of chips behind in the hopes of hitting a set? I still have t150 left if I don't hit the set and if I hit it I can possibly geta HUGE chip lead early.

SammyKid11 · #6 12-19-2005, 07:01 AM

IMO it's not a good standard play. But everyone's different.

Pete H · #7 12-19-2005, 08:46 AM

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1) I'd fold preflop. You're seriously only going to play this the 12% of the time that you flop a set...you can't play 77 for overpair value against a raise, EVEN when your sevens ARE an overpair (which is rare). About the only other time you're going to call a flop bet without a set is when you flop an open-ended straight draw (cause a 7 really isn't even high enough to chase a 4-on-the-board flush). So what, let's be generous and say you'll stay to the turn 20% of the time with your 77. That means you need to be getting at least 4-to-1 on your preflop call. You're only getting about 3.28-to-1. Plus you're out of position against the raiser. SO...I think it's a losing proposition.

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Someone's forgetting the implied odds.

Preflop call is only 5% of the effective stack, I won't fold any pair here closing the action.

If the PF raiser has a big PP, you'll stack him when you hit your set.

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2) When you do flop your set, you look around and see a draw-rich board. You need to bet that. What you're hoping for is that the preflop raiser raises out SB...you call the raise and either push or check/push the turn. Instead what you've done is allow SB to call the initial flop bet with proper odds if he's got either a flush or an OESD (both are very decent possibilities). After he's called the initial bet, your raise isn't big enough for flush draws to properly fold. If you're gonna check-raise...with this stack, I'd make it check-push.

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I think check raising is better than betting.

If you bet this out, the PF raiser won't raise with missed AK, but he'll probably take a stab with it if you check.

Also if you bet 200 here, it gives the flush draw good implied odds to call.

With that draw heavy board your bet/call a raise advice is bad. If you bet and someone raises, you'll have to push to price out the draws.

I like the amount OP raised. It allows the flush draw to make a mistake and call.

After that point I won't fold no matter what. If a club falls in turn, I'd check/call and anything else I push.

Check/pushing is better than open betting, but I think you'll lose some value when the flush draw folds.
But should the effective stack be 100-200 less I'd check/push.

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Since you didn't, I suppose your turn push is fine, though villain could easily have a straight and beat you here. But there's nothing else you can do...you can't check and give a free club to beat you, and I think you're really hard-pressed to bet/fold.

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Turn push is fine. Very weirdly played 66 might have the straight, but that's not very likely and there are still outs.

NP: Beatallica - A Garage Dayz Nite

Pete H · #8 12-19-2005, 08:57 AM

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I would lead that flop just about 100% of the time against one player but against two I assumed that someone would bet it and I could checkraise.

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Actually against only the preflop raiser I'd almost never lead this (only with a read that he won't cont bet missed hands I'd lead) as most people are less likely to make a cont bet with a missed hand against 2 callers than 1.

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After the raise was called, I felt that any non-club on the turn was worth a push.

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I agree. And would'be played the hand like you did.

What was your plan for the turn if a club hits?