question about turn hand quiz in sshe

JackThree · #1 07-09-2005, 08:51 PM

this is the hand I have a question about:

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero.....

ssh says that i should raise to protect my hand and try to fold out lone 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in case another diamond comes on the river
this is where my confusion lies, will i seriously be able to fold out those diamonds?

and am i supposed to be folding J or T one card flush draw?

jrz1972 · #2 07-09-2005, 08:56 PM

Yes, you should generally be folding T-high one card flush draws when it's two cold to you. On this one particular hand, we know that the guy with the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is drawing live, but more often than not you'll be drawing to an expensive second-best hand.

One card flush draws (except the A and K) are pretty shaky and require some care.

Edit: This situation is similar to how you would play when you flop a baby flush. Everybody knows to play that hand fast as hell because its so easy to have your hand counterfeited if another flush card comes off. In this situation, because there's only one card left to come, you're hand isn't quite as vulnerable, but you still need to protect it.

Dave G. · #3 07-09-2005, 09:20 PM

I don't really think you can protect this hand all that much here. Anyone behind you is getting 7.5:1 to call your raise, which is easily enough to call for their 4.1:1 shot of hitting another diamond, and provides more than enough overlay for the times that their flush is beaten by a bigger one.

So no, I very seriously doubt you'll be folding hands like those you describe. But, this should still be a raise for value, because most of the time that last diamond won't come in and you'd like to collect money off them while they are drawing live.

Nfinity · #4 07-09-2005, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really think you can protect this hand all that much here. Anyone behind you is getting 7.5:1 to call your raise, which is easily enough to call for their 4.1:1 shot of hitting another diamond, and provides more than enough overlay for the times that their flush is beaten by a bigger one.

So no, I very seriously doubt you'll be folding hands like those you describe. But, this should still be a raise for value, because most of the time that last diamond won't come in and you'd like to collect money off them while they are drawing live.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 5.6:1 if someone has another diamond behind you.

And if you don't raise your offering that same draw 14:1.

SoftcoreRevolt · #5 07-09-2005, 10:04 PM

Your raise is for value mostly, and you'd like to fold out 9s-Js, but as we all know, people like to call, which is good since our hand is strong anyway.

Dave G. · #6 07-09-2005, 10:19 PM

They don't know it's 5.6:1. They can only calculate odds based on the information that they know. So, as far as they're concerned, it's 4.1:1. Even at 5.6:1, they still easily have enough odds.

And yes, I agree with a raise for value, but there is almost no chance of protection here. Anyone folding a lone diamond 9, T or J is making a mistake.

Redd · #7 07-09-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really think you can protect this hand all that much here. Anyone behind you is getting 7.5:1 to call your raise...So no, I very seriously doubt you'll be folding hands like those you describe.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point of hand protection is eliminating players by convincing them that they don't have odds to draw when they do. Making players give up on +EV circumstances for themselves is +EV for us. And yeah, I would fold a naked middling diamond here to a raise.

Dave G. · #8 07-09-2005, 11:12 PM

Hand protection isn't about trying to trick them into folding. It's about offering them incorrect odds to draw, so that folding is the correct play. They either fold correctly, and your chances of winning the pot improve, or they call incorrectly, and you profit.

Here you cannot offer them incorrect odds to draw, thus you cannot protect your hand.

And folding one of those diamonds here is an error.

JackThree · #9 07-09-2005, 11:20 PM

i was under the impression that having flush over flush when there's a three flush on board is somewhat uncommon

newfant · #10 07-09-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And folding one of those diamonds here is an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

You never fold the nine of diamonds here when it's two to you on the turn? It seems like calling would be the error in that situation.

To the OP: I would almost certainly fold the nine and most likely the ten here if it's two bets to me. But, as another poster said, you still need to raise this for value regardless.