Pocket Aces and a beginner

Hi All....Another beginner dilema. Hero is UTG. UTG+1 is an absolute
maniac.....he's comes into 70-80 percent of the hands (with a raise regardless
of position or how many have lagged in front)......I was going to leave the table when the blinds got to me again....but then I get dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]......the CO has not even entered a hand since I got to the table (about
15 hands ago)........

Preflop:

Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, everyone folds to CO who caps. SB folds, BB
calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop[ 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, BB calls

Turn[9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, everyone calls,

River[4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]}
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1`bets, CO raises, BB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1
3-bets, CO caps, Hero folds.

DId I screw up here by calling the first time on the river? I had top pair....
there was no flush possible......

thanks in advance for the critique.....

Jim

[moose47]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is an absolute
maniac.....he's comes into 70-80 percent of the hands (with a raise regardless
of position or how many have lagged in front)......I was going to leave the table when the blinds got to me again

[/ QUOTE ]

It would take an act of God to get me off of this table.


As for the hand, I would go ahead and call the river again. Looks like you are getting about 15:1 on the final river call as the pot is huge. Since UTG+1 is a total maniac he could be going crazy with just a pair. I'd call and hope CO shows KK.

[shant]

Fold the river the first time.

[HouseCalls]

Preflop - good
Flop - Fine but you have to be aware that there is a flush draw and a straight draw out that will coordinate with hgh cards that people love to play.
Turn - With the action so far CO's raise probably means you are dead but I think you just call down from here with top pair (plus if CO made two pair you may counterfeit him if the board pairs).
River - with this action I think you might fold to the raise (against one player call but the second player in can't be bluffing)

[moose47]

I'm just wondering, what is your read on the maniac postflop? The more I think about this hand, I am probably folding it on the river the first time unless UTG+1 is just as crazy after the flop as he is before it. On the river, worst case scenario is you have to pay 4 bets to see a showdown and you are getting 7:1. CO's range is most likely QQ+ and the maniac's range could be anything depending on how crazy he is. If he is a chip-spewing uber-LAG postflop then I have no problem paying 4 bets. If he is just wild before the flop but only continues on with a hand, then I am throwing it away.

[shant]

Regardless of if the guy is a postflop maniac or not, you should consider the CO's hand and all previous action before being happy about putting in 4 bets on the river to see a showdown with one pair.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of if the guy is a postflop maniac or not, you should consider the CO's hand and all previous action before being happy about putting in 4 bets on the river to see a showdown with one pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it possible that CO value raises this river based on the previous hands he's watched the maniac play, with a hand worse than Aces.


The pot is something like 23BB when it gets to Hero on the river.
CO could be trying to shut Hero out of the GIGANTIMUNGONORMOUS pot and get it HU with maniac on the river.

IMO CO is raising with a worse hand than Hero more than the required 9% of the time for Hero to make the call.


EDIT:
AA - 1 combo
KK - 6 combos
AQ - 6 combos
QQ - 3 combos
TT - 3 combos
99 - 3 combos
KQ?

I don't think the hands we lose to will ever be 10x the number of hands we beat. And if we know for a fact that it is going to 4 bets on the river, I still think it's a tough call.

To the OP: Once you call the first time on the river, you have to call the second time round. The pot is SOO huge that you would have to be 95% sure you were beaten to fold here. I don't think you could ever be that sure when there is an unknown and a maniac involved.
Calling and finding out you lost is way more +EV than folding and finding out you would have won.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is something like 23BB when it gets to Hero on the river.
CO could be trying to shut Hero out of the GIGANTIMUNGONORMOUS pot and get it HU with maniac on the river.

IMO CO is raising with a worse hand than Hero more than the required 9% of the time for Hero to make the call.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good point. The CO would have to be a pretty advanced player to be trying this after that turn action, but you have a point. I think it's closer than I originally thought, but it's still definitely a fold the second time around.

[Yerma]

Why do you automatically give the CO credit for that sort of deep thought? This is one of the worst faults of the typical 2+2'er. You believe that someone is capable of pulling a fantastic move *every time that you are almost certainly losing a big pot* because you imagine that you might be able to pull such a move in the other guy's spot. The truth is that you are getting destroyed here for 4 bets on the river way way too often to go off for 4 bets.

Here is the remedy: first, observe that the player is capable of this sort of play by seeing what he had after the hand. Now, armed with an actual read, make the appropriate play next time. Don't play him like he's an awesome, tricky, 4-bet with less than the nuts, player. Play him for a typical player first and augment this with reads later.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you automatically give the CO credit for that sort of deep thought? This is one of the worst faults of the typical 2+2'er. You believe that someone is capable of pulling a fantastic move *every time that you are almost certainly losing a big pot* because you imagine that you might be able to pull such a move in the other guy's spot. The truth is that you are getting destroyed here for 4 bets on the river way way too often to go off for 4 bets.

Here is the remedy: first, observe that the player is capable of this sort of play by seeing what he had after the hand. Now, armed with an actual read, make the appropriate play next time. Don't play him like he's an awesome, tricky, 4-bet with less than the nuts, player. Play him for a typical player first and augment this with reads later.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is you haven't seen a single hand this guy has played. When there is a huge amount of money at stake and I'm dealing with an unknown, I'm going to treat him like he's Ed Miller.