QQ big stack battle at party

[muzungu]

Well, maybe not so much "battle" as "fleeing the scene screaming for mommy". What should I have done differently?

Party $100 NL. I have $530, BB has $50, UTG+1 has $800.

No read on BB, UTG+1 will make loose limps/calls preflop, plays somewhat more solidly postflop.

I get QQ in the SB. 3 limpers- I overbet slightly to $15. This is my normal play- I'm happy picking up the pot here and I want to make them pay if I'm going to play out of position for the rest of the hand.

BB calls, UTG+1 min-raises to $28.

Hmm... haven't seen him make this play yet. could be AA/KK, could be less- maybe he thinks my overbet is a bluff or just wants to control the betting for the hand. I call, BB calls.

Flop: Jxx, 2 diamonds.

So: What's my plan?

Check-fold? Check-raise? Check-call? Bet? Really, I have no idea here.

So, I check, BB thinks a while and goes all-in for 20, UTG+1 min-raises to $40. And, being the weak-tight little girly-man that I am, I decide this isn't my spot and bail.

Results: <font color="white"> BB has JTo, UTG has AKo. Doh. </font>

Cheers,

-muz

[CrisBrown]

Hi muzungu,

[ QUOTE ]
Well, maybe not so much "battle" as "fleeing the scene screaming for mommy."

[/ QUOTE ]

How about "melting back into the jungle to wait for a better opportunity?"

[ QUOTE ]
So, I check, BB thinks a while and goes all-in for 20, UTG+1 min-raises to $40. And, being the weak-tight little girly-man that I am, I decide this isn't my spot and bail.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you made any mistake, and I'm not sure you did, given what you knew at the time, it was the pre-flop call and not the fold on the flop. Apparently you strongly suspected EP was on AA or KK -- I would too -- and decided to call with your QQ, playing for set value. That's not a terrible call to make on deep money, especially against a big stack who can double you up. You're risking $13 to win $500, and if you don't hit your set ... oh well.

As it turned out, EP had AK and not AA or KK. So okay, let's say you thought he'd only do that on AA, KK, or AK. That means 1/3 of the time he has you dominated, and 2/3 of the time it's a coin flip. You lose almost 2 out of 3 times, so not pushing pre-flop was (I think) clearly the correct decision.

The general rule for QQ is that, if there's no Ace or King on the flop, you play it as if you had AA or KK. But there is an exception to that rule, and that is if you suspect a player has AA or KK. You did, and played the hand for set value. You didn't spike your set, and decided to find a better situation to get your money in.

I don't think this was cowardice. I think it was smart.

Cris

[cornell2005]

you made the right move, first call of re-raise was basically to play it for a set.
in 100NL min-raise on first raise equals monster more often that not i think. but for a tricky player, this min raise can just be used to put you on the defensive and thinking hes at AA or KK, which he is sure you dont have because of your 15 dollar preflop bet. but this type of move isnt as common and isnt as useful even in these games, imo most players use the min raise to try to get a bit more money in the pot with a monster hand.
no brainer fold here i think, but with a call preflop to try for a set and see what he does post flop. if hes a very tricky player then reconsider i guess, but id hate to put my stack on the line on the bet that he is bluffing

[Rushmore]

Look at it a different way:

You had the courage to muck a hand that might have been best.

LOSING players cannot say this.

The only thing you must do now is to try and repair the damage it does to your image. You don't want the whole table taking shots at you.

[AeonBlues]

What? You don't want the table taking shots at you? I love it when I miss flops, and fold a lot. I get this weak tight table image, and then I nail players to the felt.

AeonBlues

[Rushmore]

See, now that is open to interpretation.

Tough players taking shots at you makes the game tougher.

Weak players taking shots at you, well, you know.

[wontons]

How many NL players will limp in with AA or KK in EP also if you did and sumone made a raise of 15...your telling me you would only reraise them the min to let them see the flop? I'm sure some would..but if i did limp in with AA or KK and someone came alive with a raise of 15...hint...you want to get as much money in now as u think the opp will call...IMO...the opponent RAN OVER YOU in this situation it happens to me too..but i would have played it differently from the actions the guy with AK too.

[felson]

You played it fine. UTG has shown a lot of strength, you're out of position, and it could cost you a lot of money to get to a showdown. Even if you suspected AK, an A or K on the later streets will force you to fold anyway.

Just don't tell them you mucked QQ, unless you really agree with AeonBlues. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[felson]

I should also add that the other guy bluff raising into a dry side pot threw me for a loop. If that's how he wants to play it, I guess. Welcome to Party.

[muzungu]

Hey all-

Thanks for the comments.

AA/KK or not, it seemed like odd play to me- as mentioned, I'd expect a bigger raise from a limp-reraiser. I thought maybe he was one of those types who liked to get cute with his AA. I was mostly calling for set value, although the J-high flop made me want to take a shot at it. Glad to see others would check-fold as well, I guess- it's nice to get that reinforcement after folding a winner. At a smaller buy-in I might take a shot, but hands like this make me realize still I'm kind of uncomfortable playing deep money (say, 200+ BB stacks) at 1/2 blinds. But I can tell I'm getting more comfortable with it over time- practice makes perfect, I guess.

AeonBlues- good to see someone else willing to play with that table image. Especially at Party, with so much improper aggression, eliciting bluffs can be very profitable.

felson- yeah, I wasn't sure what to make of the UTG flop raise either. BB's bet suggests at least a flush draw or a pair of jacks- I guess it reinforced my read of a big pair trying to sucker me in bit by bit. On the off-chance that BB has a flush draw, maybe it's a good move, getting me to fold.

-muz