Can you lie? Like, literally?

CrazyEyez · #1 10-03-2004, 09:51 PM

Friendly, informal NL game. $20 max buy-in, .25/.50 blinds, 6 friends.

Background on the relevant player, "Joe." Joe is fairly new to the game, very impatient, any-two-cards, mild ADD, and half the time doesn't seem to know what he even has. But also ultra friendly.

4 to the flop, AQJ rainbow. Checks around.
Turn 10 [A Q J]
Player A, chip leader, bets a buck or two off his stack of about $45. Fold-fold to "Joe."

Joe hesitates, then mumbles to himself - but clearly audible to the table - something like this: "I just need one more card." A few laughs, and another player says "Do you realize you just told everyone that you're on a draw?" We all laugh, and Joe calls.

River is a 4 [A Q J 10]

Player A checks, Joe emphatically pushes all in, about 4-5 bucks, while laughing.
Player A thinks, then says "I can't believe that 4 helped you, so I'll call." He tables pocket 6's.

Joe flips up 8-9, for a turned straight.

Question: Was it kosher or not for him to flat out lie and say that he need another card when he had already made a straight? (No he was not thinking he needed a king; he was sure he had the best hand.) Given his "newbie" and slightly clueless reputation at poker, no one doubted his statement for a second. However the loser of the hand thought it was weak at best, and flat-out illegal at worst.

Any thoughts?

DimensionPresident · #2 10-03-2004, 10:02 PM

Saying "I just need one more card" is not illegal at all.

In fact, the entire table needs one more card.

I mean, if that was illegal, then so would calling a big bet when you have the nuts on the turn and saying "I'm afraid to call a bet like that with my hand".

I believe it is only illegal if you give specifics about your hand. Saying you need a card isn't specific.

ClonexxSA · #3 10-03-2004, 10:03 PM

I have always been under the impression that any discussion about a hand that is currently being played was illegal past saying things like "I think I have the best hand". Stating that you are on a draw while the hand is still live I believe would be considered illegal, true or not.

However, I am not 100% sure on this, and it is a home game so it really depends on the rules of the house.

DimensionPresident · #4 10-03-2004, 10:29 PM

Well, it's a matter of semantics, but the guy didn't say he was on a draw. The guy said he needed another card. It's just a matter of fact because he does need another card, and so does everyone else since there needs to be five cards on the board and only four were played.

The rest of the table deduced that he was on a draw by him saying that and they were wrong.

There could be any number of things he could legally say that could be construed as saying he is on a draw such as "I want to see the river", etc.

LetsRock · #5 10-04-2004, 12:05 AM

I personally don't care for "coffe housing", which is what he did. But, it's all legal in most games. This ain't pickup sticks and this type of game warfare is not uncommon.

Unless your game specifically prohibits players from talking about their hands during the hand, it's all part of the game.

theWhale · #6 10-04-2004, 12:31 AM

n/t

CrazyEyez · #7 10-04-2004, 12:51 AM

I couldn't find a rule specifically addressing what is/isn't allowed in terms of "table talk." (Other than the obvious - not talking about what cards you folded, etc.)

My feeling was that poker is ALL ABOUT lying. Joe was smart enough to take advantage of what we all knew about him and he suckered us all. Good for him.

The guy who lost basically said that a rule was broken, and in his words "if it had been in a real card room, it wouldn't be allowed." I didn't really think that was true, but couldn't say with any authority because I don't think I've ever seen that situation, even at the card club.

Incidentally - "Joe", being the nice guy that he is and being made to feel like he broke a rule, apologized and even offered to give him some of the pot back. I thought that was completely unneccessary. Player A, being the sore loser that he is, accepted $5 back. I thought that was completely spineless.

I know I said this was a friendly game, but jeez....
I felt like I couldn't really say much 'cause I wasn't involved in the hand. The other guys in the game just said "I wouldn't have given a dime back" and that was the end of the story.

TenPercenter · #8 10-04-2004, 01:19 AM

I wish you had added a poll to this one. I'm interested in the answer, and it seems to be a split opinion so far. The opinions seem to lean towards "can't lie" which surprises me.

Ten

Damageinc333 · #9 10-04-2004, 02:40 AM

ive always been told that you cant "Verbally Bluff" and the way it was explained to me was basically if there are 2 Aces on the board you cant say you have an Ace if you dont. We have one guy who plays with us regularly who whenever he is raised he asks the raiser "What do you have" and "do you want me to call this" which i think is BS, If the raiser cant lie about what he's holding then someone shouldent be able ask him what he's holding. When confronted the guy said he was not looking for a verbal responce, rather he was trying to guage the raisers body language.

Kenrick · #10 10-04-2004, 02:59 AM

You bluff in poker. Lying is bluffing. No way I do something like that to people I know at a friendly game, but otherwise it's all part of the game. Consider it trash-talking. The only thing worse than someone saying they need one more card but really don't is believing what that person says in the first place.

Certainly wasn't illegal, but Joe should know the gloves are off for all future play now, and probably has a target on his back.