At what limits will this stop happening (another bb story)?

[deskjockey]

First off, let me say that this is my first post after lurking for several months. I play often with ID4, who has suggested on many occasions that I review some of my play here for advice and other opinions, so... here goes:

Typical 5-10 Sat nite at the Taj. I'm at a table with ID4 and 2 others whose play I respect a great deal. There are a couple of short stacks who keep playing far too aggressively for the talent level at the table and either fold on the end, go into paper to make horrible calls, or catch a miracle. One guy is completely insane (not play-wise, the guy's like talking to himself and taking his money out of his shoes). I'm at the table for an hour when, on the button, there are 6 callers to me and I look down to see Q-10c. Obviously, I call. The BB (overly aggressive) can't let it go and raises. All 6 of us call - $62 on board (SB folded), flop comes 10-10-4c.

Aggressive-man bets out, two callers, nut-job raises. Folds to me, I just smooth-call (I have a tendency to try and trap, rather than push a hand too hard), folds to BB who makes it 3 bets to go. Folds to nut-job, who just calls, and I decide to cap it - what the hell, right? $70 added to the pot, total of $132, down to the 3 of us and I've got position - turn comes Kc.

Not that I'm looking for the flush, but in case I don't fill, I'm liking the extra club. On the other hand, aggressive-man could be legit w/his PF raise and could have kings full. Hmmmm... agg-man bets out again, nut-job raises, I re-raise, a/m now calls 2 more bets and n/j caps it (I think we found the other 10, huh?). All 3 of us go to the river for $40 more apiece. $252 on board, still 3 of us, I still have position. River comes Ad.

Agressive-man wakes back up and leads for $10. Nutso can't resist another raise, I fear the worst and now just call. When agg-man makes it 3 bets, I'm just praying that he's so dumb that he's actually got AK and went runner-runner for 2 overpair, but I think we all know better. Nut-job calls and so do I (what's the point of saving a bet now?). Add $30 each to the total, take out $4 for the rake, and someone's getting a $338 payday.

Nut-job proudly turns over his 10-9 and announces "ship it" (doofus), I hold my cards. Suprise, suprise, our little aggressive friend said his "I-do's" preflop, got married to his aces and ran to the river to catch a 2-outer to beat both of us (well, actually, to beat ME).

Question number 1: How far do YOU take your aces (or other good overpair) into straightened, flushed, or paired boards?

Question number 2: At what limit does this regularly NOT occur (I know that there'll always be 1 or 2 people but not ALL THE TIME)?

Question number 3: Do you do anything different (save a bet, push harder, beat the guy out in the parking lot)?

TIA for your words of wisdom (I hope). As an aside, thanx for the suggestion, ID4, it was actually enjoyable creating this post.

[Vehn]

1) Until its very clear they're no good.
2) None. I play 15/30 now and it happens all the time. I had pocket 8's on a board of A 8 3 with 2 dimes, turn was a low dime, river was a king - and lost to pocket kings on friday [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
3) Fold river. Beating the guy up out in the parking lot will make you feel better also.

p.s. to all those posters furiously typing "You want this to happen", you can save it as that advice doesn't help anyone at all. Seriously. Everyone knows that.

[J.R.]

At what limit does this regularly NOT occur (I know that there'll always be 1 or 2 people but not ALL THE TIME)?

no limit

[Bob T.]

Question number 1: How far do YOU take your aces (or other good overpair) into straightened, flushed, or paired boards?

Question number 2: At what limit does this regularly NOT occur (I know that there'll always be 1 or 2 people but not ALL THE TIME)?

Question number 3: Do you do anything different (save a bet, push harder, beat the guy out in the parking lot)?



1) Until I am convinced that they are no good. You opponent was apparently never convinced.

2) If you are posting on this forum, not at any limit you will be playing in the forseeable future.

3) I don't think you could save money here, at least you played it where the cap was four bets. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

[elysium]

hi desk
in the case of AA against those opponents and board, it's very borderline. when the K hits, unless he has Ac, against two solid opponents, he could fold. it doesn't look like he holds the Ac here so his bet out was o.k., he must stop the free card, then he gets trapped. hmmm...., at this point, he should give it up in my opinion. he doesn't have the odds to call the turn raise, especially since doing so commits him to call the river if a rag hits. i think the turn call by the BB is a mistake here. i'm not so sure that the advantages of folding here are less than the advantages of calling to prevent being run over or bluffed on some later hand. i do think though that it may encourage a bluff if the BB folds his AA but i don't think that we need to show grit when sandwiched between two raisers. i think those loose calls should be made only when we have position or are unlikely to be raised. here, the BB is getting between 5-1 to 7-1 depending on river action, but no more than 8-1 in any event, and he only has about a 12-1 chance of being in the lead and a 20-1 or so chance of hitting his 2 out. but i point to the possible 5-1 odds he likely will be receiving on the river. i'm only counting the 10 as a half out, not even a full out. he may be getting a minimum of 6 or 7 to 1 on the river. just too narrow for me, that's all i know. interestingly, the nut in this hand was far more likely to help you than the BB, but he actually wound up helping the BB. the BB should have folded on the turn due to the crimp the nut was putting on the BB odds. i rate the BB as a loose aggressive. there was nothing you could do to save a bet here. you played it perfectly given your opponents.

[JTG51]

to all those posters furiously typing "You want this to happen", you can save it as that advice doesn't help anyone at all. Seriously. Everyone knows that.

I disagree. Everyone says they know that, but if everyone really knew it and believed it there would never be a bad beat story posted on here.

Hi Jock,

First, welcome to the forum. I'm sure you'll enjoy it and probably you'll get hooked too.

Now, to the hand: Play your bottom trips fast and raise the flop to put pressure on the original raiser (I don't know who it was as I already moved to another table and was taking a beating [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] ). You are most likely ahead and could possibly have changed the way the hand was played. But it's all conjecture at this point Even then, it's very difficult for high card holders, especially with AA, to give up at this point as players tend to ignore odds when blinded by the size of the pot. Many are oblivious enough to call all the way regardless of pot odds.

As it turned out in the actual hand, agro had the correct 22-1 odds for his 2-outer, not to mention his top 2 (which he thought was good enough) to bet out on the turn. The Nutso's raise could mean anything gauging from the way he rivered some of us. Agro was already trapped for 2 more bets and had to call. I don't think I would have the discipline either to fold on the river with the size of the pot.

I've seen worse scenarios. Last week, I was watching a 50-100 HE while waiting for my blind (my table was in the high stake area): Button called a PF raiser all the way to the river and caught a runner-runner flush with 9h5h. Go figure. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[bernie]

first off, AA usually beats QT. this is just another way it happens.

"Question number 1: How far do YOU take your aces (or other good overpair) into straightened, flushed, or paired boards?"

id have folded much earlier. like the turn unless i thought my opponents would get this wild with just an overpair. the guy doesnt have the odds needed to call the turn bet with his aces. much less a capped pot at this point. you realize you made a ton off of him in the long run on this hand. even though you lost the pot. yeah, yeah, we all know. but do you 'really' believe it?

"Question number 2: At what limit does this regularly NOT occur (I know that there'll always be 1 or 2 people but not ALL THE TIME)?"

im going to say it, you want this to happen. would you rather play better players and just grind? ill take your seat. btw...this is a very tough hurdle to get over for many players. accepting beats like this, that is. and 'really' understanding why you shouldnt mind them. there are much worse beats than this overall.

"Question number 3: Do you do anything different (save a bet, push harder, beat the guy out in the parking lot)?"

itd be a tough fold on the river. player dependent, but it sure looks like youre beat. the guy didnt just weather 4 bets on a turn and come out betting hoping to bluff you guys off the pot after you both put that much into the pot. when he 3 bets, it's kind of obvious isnt it? BUT if you are unsure, you call. based on his play, i wouldve leaned toward folding. but i didnt see how he played previous. which could sway me to call.

watch aggressive man's betting standards as they changed a little on the big streets didnt they? they did here in this hand.

many overaggressives play that way on the small streets. it's on the bigger streets where you can define much better. when the smoke clears on the turn, then they assess their hand a little. this isnt actually a maniac playing this way. maniacs generally dont slow down. look for the spots like this.

welcome to the board

b