400-800 hand

[snakehead]

against a tricky player who has been playing a lot of hands, I would check and call the river. there's too much money in the pot to fold to a bet, and I wouldn't want to be raised out so I wouldn't bet the river. you would have to be very sure you were beat to fold here.

[UMTerp]

Sorry to sidetrack the thread for a moment, but a quick question regarding games this big:

How do you buy into them? Do you literally have to show up to the casino with $40K in cash, or is there some kind of bank transfer type thing that is available? I feel a little weird carrying enough cash around to play $60-$120.

FWIW, I'd have looked him up (even moreso if it was online), but my opinion is more than likely irrelevant in a hand like this.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I played this hand in a good 400-800 game at Bellagio last night. John D'Agostino (sp?) is to my immediate left and has called or reraised almost every single time I have raised preflop. This may just be a coincidence but I'm not sure. My image (as far as I'm aware) is relatively tight...I have been raising maybe what appears to be very frequently preflop, but all have been the typical raising hands, nothing out of line. John has cold-called my UTG raises w/ hands as weak as A5s next in and has been playing very well postflop.
I don't remember the exact cards in the hand but the important details are here. I raise JsJd UTG, John coldcalls, a loose BB calls. Flop is KQ5 w/ two hearts. Checked to me, I bet, John calls, and the blind folds. Turn is an irrelevant small card (maybe a 3 or something). I bet and he calls. River is a third heart (8 maybe?). I check, John bets, and I fold.
Any thoughts or standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

after reading the c'r the river post i feel like i did when i just read the post for the first time...i dont like either option of c'f or c'c...

i do like c'ring more but am actually less likely to do it vs. a guy who will almost want to call for sheer information (and who probably would)...to me this takes a lot of the value away when he folds AQ or QJs. c'cing is good because it buys you future river folds when he expects you to call (i think you are very likely in a -ev calling spot here). c'fing i think is correct on ev grounds in a vaccuum.

-Barron

[DpR]

a lot of the debate. We have defined the villan as someone who may not be playing a premium hand here. Since our villian is not a donk, we can assume he is doing this becasue he thinks he can outplay the hero post flop (is there any other explanation?)

Thus the river comes and he could have a whole lot of random hands that we would not normally expect from a cold caller - thus K or Q is not certain. Can you say floater?

Against a predictable opponent I can understand the discussion re: folding (i.e. what could he bet that hero beats). But we have defined this player as someone that we have to call against. To me this seems like me posting, UTG raised (total LAG but plays/bluffs pretty well post flop), I 3 bet UTG+1 with KK. Flop comes A58, utg bets hero folds. Standard?

[highlife]

I'm pretty sure the point is that OP is playing 400/800 against a name player. That is all.

[illguitar]

I think that it is highly likely that you are facing a semi-weak king or queen. I agree that in a vaccuum it is correct to check-fold, but I would call for information and to give the impression that it won't be easy to bet me out. You beat TT, 99 and JT. JT and 99 are highly unlikely. So I guess I'm advocating what I think is a -EV play for a chance at +EV later.

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is highly likely that you are facing a semi-weak king or queen. I agree that in a vaccuum it is correct to check-fold, but I would call for information and to give the impression that it won't be easy to bet me out. You beat TT, 99 and JT. JT and 99 are highly unlikely. So I guess I'm advocating what I think is a -EV play for a chance at +EV later.

[/ QUOTE ]

This level is so over my head it's ridiculous.. but somewhat of a theoretical question:
Couldn't you derive a fair bit of value *from* him thinking he can push you off on the river? Against an average opponent - who this guy obviously isn't - you should be able to get some value check-raises in.
I guess what I'm thinking is that it often makes more sense to just take advantage of the image you've established than to make plays specifically to establish an image. That said, I can see how preventing him from pushing you around would be more useful than having him maybe bet a weaker hand on the river..

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if you had to pick extremes, always calling in this situation would never be that bad whereas always folding could be a big mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

very well put. I could have saved myself some grief if I had just said something like that. at any rate, folding here is anything but standard, as the op seems to think.

[/ QUOTE ]


and if calling is better than folding after checking, then OP would only need a very small success rate of jdag folding a Q here to make c'ring better than calling...im starting to lean towards a c'r overall from a close call.

-Barron

[arod15]

You have to call for two reasons. First and not as important there is a chance your ahead (although probably not) Second and most important for information. John has been from the sound of it outplaying you all day. You cant understand his plays call here and see what he cold called with what he was betting at you with. Was he beeting the flush draw? Did he have and overpiar? or was he simply bluffing? Even though its steep you should pay one more BB bet to see it. No Doubt.

[DpR]

I'm still searching for the players that folding anything other than a bluff to a river c/r.