The rarest play in Hold-Em

tessarji · #1 07-06-2005, 12:52 AM

Bluff raise the river much?

Ok, this is a reaction to this thread in Small Stakes forum, where the general consensus appears to be that I am a huge donk. I could live with that, considering the various alcohols swirling through my bloodstream at the time of the hand.

But I remain unconvinced still. If this is not a place for a river bluff raise, what is? What pot sizes/boards/opponents make you consider attempting a Big Play like this one? For what it's worth, the hand described was my first use of this play ever in B&M hold-em, and it was successful. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Please post hands where you tried to win a pot with a bluff raise when all the cards were out, whether it succeeded or not, along with your reasoning for the attempt.

elindauer · #2 07-06-2005, 01:00 AM

Hi,

Your play looks reasonable enough to me. That's a pretty scary river card, especially if he sees you as a little loose. Your opponent is solid, he may very well value bet one pair and laydown to a raise.

Good luck.
Eric

tessarji · #3 07-06-2005, 01:08 AM

To get things started I'll contribute a hand from the next day, same game. After this move worked once I decided to test the limits a bit.

July 3rd, 4/8 w half kill, MGM Grand

My hand: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in CO

EP limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, I raise, both blinds and all limpers call.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

MP1 bets out. I call, SB calls, BB calls. Others fold.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Everyone checks.

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

MP1 bets. I raise as a bluff because of his odd turn check on a somewhat harmless card, and I can't afford to have the two players behind try an overcall. It's conceivable the 8 would have completed a draw for me. MP1 calls rather quickly and shows AQ.

This situation was probably not a very good spot for a bluff raise, but the leader's odd line on the turn confused me.

Comments?

elindauer · #4 07-06-2005, 01:23 AM

You know, I understand this play in theory, and it makes sense. Despite this, my attempts at it seem to meet with inevitable failure. I'm sure I'd be farther ahead if I'd never considered making this move. I'm sure this is just a failure in execution on my part, but it leads me to believe that this play is very tough to pull off correctly.

My own thinking on this play is that it requires a particular kind of player (aggressive, bluffs into multiple players, and solid, capable of calling for 1 bet but not 2) and a particular kind of hand (bluff in one, made but vulnerable in another) in multiple seats, and that combination is tough to recognize with enough accuracy to make up for the times your judgment is off and your 2BB effort fails.

This is one play that I have conceded is too tough for me, at this point in my poker career.

-Eric

elindauer · #5 07-06-2005, 01:26 AM

By the way, you can learn a lot from the fact that so many people in your thread assumed you were asking if you should call the river without giving any thought to the idea of bluff raising. Players, in general, just don't bluff raise the river very much.

-Eric

A_C_Slater · #6 07-06-2005, 02:26 AM

This is sooooo kiddie pool.

Check/raise total bluffing on the river is the money play.

World Class pros only need apply. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

sledghammer · #7 07-06-2005, 02:32 AM

heres a hand from a few months ago. this only worked because i had a specific read on the cut off; specifically, he was a maniac. the other two were loose passives. I was also drunk at the time.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (16.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (20.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26.25 BB

tessarji · #8 07-06-2005, 03:48 AM

Check/raise bluffing would qualify for this thread.

Want to share a hand?

tessarji · #9 07-06-2005, 03:52 AM

The thread title says it all, rarest play in limit hold-em.

I believe I have probably seen a raised river 200 or more times in my last year of holdem. The original bettor folded in maybe a dozen instances?

I agree, it is very difficult play to pull off.

brick · #10 07-06-2005, 04:59 AM

What a mess this was....

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Brickster is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Brickster completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Brickster checks, BB checks, MP checks, Button bets, Brickster raises, BB folds, MP folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Brickster checks, Button bets, Brickster calls.

River: (6 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Brickster checks, Button bets, Brickster raises, Button folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB