Marginal hand #2 Play or no play - Page 5

grjr · #41 04-13-2005, 01:40 PM

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I assumed you would call preflop if the pot wasn't raised. Was that wrong to assume?

The example I gave was what more often than not happens when you DO hit the flop. Naturally, if you miss the flop you fold or check.

I included all my bets to show the pot size then deducted what I put in to show the profit.

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1) This is an easy preflop call with no raise, easy fold in the given situation.
2) Your claim is false. The 50% number was an overestimate (to be generous to your position). 33% turns out to be a better choice.

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I'm not following you here. What claim did I make that is false?

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"More often than not" is the false claim. It's more like "half as often as not".

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I guess I didn't express that well. The "more often than not" meant that that's usually what happens when you actually do hit the flop. Not that you actually hit the flop "more often than not". Does that make sense now?

Aaron W. · #42 04-13-2005, 01:43 PM

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Ok, I called because of the reasons I already outlined. I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

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One of the things I've noticed in your posts is that you dismiss other people's arguments out of hand. I don't think this is the best way to use this forum to improve your game.

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It's called a debate. I reply with my opinions and you replay with yours. Doesn't mean I'm right and doesn't mean you're right.

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No... that's an empty dispute. A debate has content that goes beyond opinion. So far, you have put forth opinion while most everyone else puts for an argument.

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I DO appreciate all the comments and compare them with my own thoughts. I then decide which course I want to follow. I WILL NOT follow a path because everyone else does. If I'm wrong then I have no one to blame but myself.

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I'm glad you take this position. There have been past disputes where the "other" was adamant that his way of playing was right and refused to even accept the notion that there might be a mistake.

jrz1972 · #43 04-13-2005, 01:45 PM

And so after calling the flop 3-bet, the turn card was . . .?

grjr · #44 04-13-2005, 01:50 PM

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This is a fold for me, even with the button. I'd coldcall with T9s and maybe T8s and be more likely to coldcall with blinds.

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.......but if forced to pay 2bets, getting the same relative odds that is 10/2 .. you need to make 10-14SB to get back to even, considerably tougher and less likely to happen with small connectors, and 1gappers............

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What do you think of my opinion that when someone (other than yourself) raises preflop there is a much better chance of getting some significant action on the flop and beyond?

If 3 people limp in preflop they probably don't have great hands and may not put in any other money after the flop. At least with a preflop raiser {and cold caller) you have someone who values their hand and will probably put more money in after the flop.

grjr · #45 04-13-2005, 01:55 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
MP2 bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero caps, MP2 calls.

Any problems with the cap here? I wouldn't think so but I'm willing to listen. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

jrz1972 · #46 04-13-2005, 01:58 PM

Okay, this street seems pretty straightforward.

bottomset · #47 04-13-2005, 02:03 PM

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What do you think of my opinion that when someone (other than yourself) raises preflop there is a much better chance of getting some significant action on the flop and beyond?

If 3 people limp in preflop they probably don't have great hands and may not put in any other money after the flop. At least with a preflop raiser {and cold caller) you have someone who values their hand and will probably put more money in after the flop.

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yes you will get more action on average than you would in an unraised pot, but you have twice the work to do, so unless you get more than double the action you woulda got in the unraised situation its not better .. plus in a raised pot you will lose more often when you do hit as many of the really good flops end up counterfeited by the river

another downside is that in raised pots the raiser tends to have a pretty strong hand, one that often is quite capable of counterfeiting your strong flops .. when you flop 2pair it will usually be bottom2, and will leave a straight draw on the board ..

istewart · #48 04-13-2005, 02:04 PM

grjr, you've generated two very good discussions. However, you might be a little results-oriented [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

jrz1972 · #49 04-13-2005, 02:13 PM

Yeah I've enjoyed both these threads, but they've each featured an extremely questionable early action that came up smelling like a rose with Hero hits his hand and Villain turns on the spigots.

grjr · #50 04-13-2005, 02:15 PM

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What do you think of my opinion that when someone (other than yourself) raises preflop there is a much better chance of getting some significant action on the flop and beyond?

If 3 people limp in preflop they probably don't have great hands and may not put in any other money after the flop. At least with a preflop raiser {and cold caller) you have someone who values their hand and will probably put more money in after the flop.

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yes you will get more action on average than you would in an unraised pot, but you have twice the work to do, so unless you get more than double the action you woulda got in the unraised situation its not better .. plus in a raised pot you will lose more often when you do hit as many of the really good flops end up counterfeited by the river

another downside is that in raised pots the raiser tends to have a pretty strong hand,

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This is the part I like (for the action potential).

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one that often is quite capable of counterfeiting your strong flops .. when you flop 2pair it will usually be bottom2, and will leave a straight draw on the board ..

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This is the part I don't like. It seems like I win less than 20% of the hands where I flop 2 pair since my cards are usually close together and there is seemingly always a straight draw (as you said). Believe me, I know you have to be very wary in playing your 2 pair in that situation.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't consider 2 pair a "strong" flop when there are more than 1 or 2 others involved. Strong to me would be the straight or flush draw.