computers and random number generator

[muckyouraces]

While it is true that online sites do make a ton of cash, the fact is that the employees working for the sites aren't making a ton of cash. So it would make sense for an employee to exploit a weekness found in the software. If nobody believes this, they should watch the travel channel on "VEGAS CHEATERS EXPOSED" OR "CHEATING VEGAS" (it's one of those i can't remember exactly). They document a true story of one man that used to work for the gaming comission (don't remember his name). He found a weekness in the random number generator for the KENO machines where he would know exactly what numbers would come next by just seeing what numbers came in the previous spin. He was of course a genius and it took him a while to figure it out, but he prooved his theory that computers cannot generate random numbers.

Test this theory: Go to your local cardroom or casino and take a notepad and pen. make sure you document how long you are there so you can estimate how many hands you are dealt. write down every playable hand you get (it shouldn't be too many if you are a good player). Then go online another time and document how many playable hands you get dealt. You will see a huge difference!! When you play online, you get dealt a lot more playable or action hands.

I am a poker dealer and I might deal KK to one player and AA to another player once every week or 2. I see KK vs. AA about 1 -2 times a day when i play online. i play online about 2-4 hours a day. i only play small limits for this reason $.50 -$1 NL, or $1-$2 NL. I never play anything over $1-2 online for these reasons. Anybody else notice this besides me?

[blank frank]

A) Cute anecdote.
B) Give me some hard data.
C) Even if there is a difference, it could be because manual shuffling is less random than computer shuffling. The question isn't online vs. manual, it's online vs. expectation.

[Doomlord]

What are the laws regarding shuffling for real-life and online play? how well are they regulated? It seems unusual that such a glaring difference, if real, would be legal?

[OrangeKing]

Hey, it's another "online poker is rigged/the shuffle is predictable thread!" These ones certainly haven't been done to death and compeltely debunked before!

[SeppDeitrich]

Muckyouraces:

You are right, computers cannot generate secure random numbers. For that reason most poker sites do not use computers to generate their random numbers. Random numbers are generated by hardware components that use quantum processes to generate true unpredictable random numbers.

http://www.pokerstars.com/security.html

this page provides details on the shuffle used by pokerstars.com, other sites use simmilar shuffleing processes.

Sepp

[piggity]

Okay. Once upon a time I might have been considered a quasi-expert on this topic, so I'll give it a shot.

1. Most people's anecdotal evidence claiming that something's wrong with the online shuffles comes from a statistically insignificant sample and therefore useless. There are a gazillion people with ginormous online hand histories, and AFAIK they haven't discovered any actual anomalies.

2. Computers cannot generate random numbers. Instead, they rely on "pseudo-random" algorithms to generate sequences which, mathematically, mimic a random sequence. A few years ago there actually was an online poker room that used a very simple pseudo-random number generator (on top of a bad shuffling algorithm), and an exploit was found by some programmers. Here's a link:

http://www.developer.com/tech/articl...3_616221_1?o=0

These days, most sites use much more sophisticated generators, and add entropy via real-world events (e.g., temperature, network traffic, etc.). Often, these algorithms are audited by a third party. Assuming these algorithms work the way they say they do, it's about as random as you'll ever get, and certainly more random than a few riffs by a live dealer.

3. My guess is that if any exploits exist in current online poker software, it is probably not related to the random number generation per se. It is nearly impossible to "guess" the sequence in the same manner as discusssed in the article. I also think it's highly unlikely that any sites would purposely "rig" their software, and arguments along the lines of "well, why *wouldn't* they?" are not credible.

4. That said, anyone who thinks online poker sites are non-exploitable is being naive. In any networked client-server environment, you have a bunch of machines with buggy hardware running undoubtedly buggy server software on buggy operating systems, communicating *over the internet* to buggy client software running on buggy operating systems on buggy hardware being used by users with buggy brains. It's a hacker's paradise. The best programmers in the world can't create a completely secure *web browser*. The odds that online poker software is completely secure is zero.

[Guthrie]

I propose a new forum for this topic, "Online Poker is Rigged" to keep all the same posts in the same place.

Oh, and one for Jesus too.

[piggity]

[ QUOTE ]
I propose a new forum for this topic, "Online Poker is Rigged" to keep all the same posts in the same place.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Guthrie,

While I agree that most such claims are baseless, I don't think the topic of online security ought to be dismissed. But I agree that this is probably the wrong forum for that.

[Guthrie]

Absolutely there should be discussion. The article you linked was quite informative. I had heard about it but never read the actual story. I knew just enough about random number generation to understand how the problem could have come up, but assumed the poker site hired better programmers. Apparently not.

Unfortunately, there is rarely discussion here about real security problems, only charges that online poker is rigged because the poster sees a lot of big hands, lots of people suck out, whatever. Yours was the first post I've seen that linked to an actual case.

I've long had a theory that Windows Solitaire is rigged--they reward good play and punish bad, but that's another thread. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]