ATs theory question

[dfscott]

Most people (including myself) seem to advocate raising ATs in MP or LP. But then you see people talking about just calling postflop. It seems like flopping an A is a mixed blessing because you might be out-kicked. Flopping a T is ok, but you have to watch out for non-A overcards later.

So all-in-all, it looks like ATs isn't much better than A8s or even A7s, which I don't think anyone would advocate raising. What am I missing here? It just because TPTK is that much better when the TP is tens? Raising because you might flop a ten seems thin to me.

(BTW, my copy of SSH hasn't arrived yet, so if it's in there, I apologize and retract my post.)

[Songwind]

I've been thinking a lot about Ax type hands this week, so let's see if anything I have figured out or been told has stuck.

Obviously it's marginal or you wouldn't restrict it to late positions. But it's still better than A8s because:
Two less pocket pairs beat a flopped top pair
There are fewer overcards to worry about
A8 or A7 doesn't give you two to the nut straight
If you do hit TP with a ten kicker, you still have a fairly good chance of having the highest Ax hand.. 1.5 times as many Ax hands beat you with A8.

[TrailofTears]

I agree with those ideas/stats. In addition, I would say that in a tighter game, you would raise to knock out minimal hands so you don't get outdrawn by K8 or the like. Also, the old button steal is nice, since position and initiative are both key with a hand like this.

[chief444]

I don't think any of the better posters would advocate anything but raising pf with ATs if there is no raise ahead of you, regardless of position or number of limpers.

As long as you are not 3-bet and didn't coldcall a raise pf, you will not often be outkicked with an A high flop. But when you flop a T is much more likely not to be top pair on the flop than a J,Q, or K plus it is vulnerable to any of these falling on the turn or river. By the same token ATs is considerably better than A7s (More high card value plus those rare occasions you catch a straight), although I often raise A7s-A9s in LP as well.

[easypete]

I'll take a stab at this...

Many people playing in low-limit games make many mistakes playing bad hands pf. Mix this with the idea that making other players on the table make mistakes pays you off in the long run.

ATs is a strong hand (in the top 10-15 hands) and can withstand a 3-bet behind you. You raise in order to increase the dead money in the pot. All your opponents who call w/ hands like JTo are making a big mistake playing a hand like that for more than 1 SB, and if they're out of position, they are making a bigger mistake and increasing the amount of dead money in the pot. Ed Miller explains this in SSH.

As for your concerns on what you want to hit.... If you hit an ace, ATs will stand up more than you are giving it credit for. And hitting a T on the flop is also good. But as with all hands, you need to lay it down if the board is not favorable (same as you would AK or AQ).

As for when to raise w/ ATs... I will generally raise this if first in (from MP on) and to one limper, because I probably have the best hand, and would like a chance to get heads up, where the hand works better. If there is more than one limper in the pot, then my chances of getting heads-up has diminished, therefore, I will just limp. In MP or LP, I would fold this to a raise from EP (unless EP raises light).

Not all hands are group 1 hands. You have to find ways to play other hands profitably. If you limp ATs first in or w/ one limper, I think you won't be as profitable as you would by raising.