3 marginal hands

WalkAmongUs · #1 11-04-2005, 10:00 AM

So after a 100BB downswing session of 763 hands. I was reviewing my play and trying to look for errors. I looked through all the hands where I had my largest losses.

For the most part, it appears as if there wasn't much I could have done, but I'd probably attribute a loss of 20BB out of 100 due to my own playing errors.

I haven't looked at my winners yet but I need to. Anyways heres three hands I found where my errors weren't glaring and I thought they might need discussion.

Hand 1: The PF call was due to most of the callers being the fish at the table. I figured the call out of BB was ok with so many limpers. The PF raiser was also loose (~40%). I think I held onto this for way too long. I have a hard time putting a pack of loose players on hands.

It scrambles my radar even more because some of them go nuts with hands that don't warrant it and some bet draws like they're pocket aces. One, maybe 2 I can deal with but a pack tends to confuse me.

I continued in this hand because the pot got to be large. I do think I would have folded the river had I not caught my two pair because I figured my aces with 6 kicker were no good on the turn.

Its marginal but I'm sure I made errors in this hand.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (15 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls $0.41 (All-In), Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (18.10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 24.10 BB

Hand 2: What the hell does he have? 7,10? Set? Villain is semi-TAG. About 25/8/1.5.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Hand 3: Villain is loose, slightly passive. Loves to call. Call call call. 24/7. Should I bet/fold or check/fold this river? He popped me on the overcard...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

@bsolute_luck · #2 11-04-2005, 10:29 AM

hand #1: donk that flop. it's a big pot and you want to maximize you chances to win. hope UTG raises with his KK/QQ. even if behind to a biggere Ace you have the BDFD and 2 outs to 2 pair. seriously i think you should fold the turn because UTG probably has trips and you don't have outs for your 2 outer even if you have outs at all.

hand #2: you spewed major chips. he capped preflop and now you're only ahead of TT. the question isn't: does he have a 7 or T, the question is how did you miss his preflop "I have a huge hand" sign he was waving?

hand #3: is fine.

#3 11-04-2005, 10:49 AM

Hand 1.
I bet the flop with PFR on my immediate left.
After checking, I'm definitely not calling 2 back to me. Getting 10:1 sounds good but you are likely drawing to 2 outs that probably aren't good anyway and the very likely flop cap that's coming - ditch.

Hand 2. I think he's got JJ. I would have gone into call down mode after the flop cap and expected to lose. He capped preflop and TT is the only reasonable hand your ahead of.

Hand 3. I play the same.

tiltaholic · #4 11-04-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: The PF call was due to most of the callers being the fish at the table. I figured the call out of BB was ok with so many limpers. The PF raiser was also loose (~40%).

[/ QUOTE ]

sure, his vpip was loose. what was his pfr though? just because people like to limp in a lot, it doesn't always mean they are raising more hands than you'd think. either way...i'm still calling this preflop in a heartbeat. not marginal in my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (15 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls $0.41 (All-In), Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (18.10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 24.10 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

as you played it i'd fold the flop to the 2 bets the first time. yes you are getting 19:2 on what seems like 5 outs. but i don't think your aces are good for anything and one of the sixes tainted b/c of flush draw with so many people in the pot. so you have maybe something like 2.5 or 3 outs including the back door flush draw. and you're not closing the action...

edit - i'd also lead the flop.

tiltaholic · #5 11-04-2005, 11:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: What the hell does he have? 7,10? Set? Villain is semi-TAG. About 25/8/1.5.

[/ QUOTE ]

what hands does a "semi-tag" cap pf with?
i'd say a good starting point would be AA-TT (though TT is suspect), AKs, and AKo
[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

of the hands above what are you now beating?
i might 3-bet the flop as you did and call the cap but then i'm check calling the rest of the hand. the turn action is bad.

tiltaholic · #6 11-04-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: Villain is loose, slightly passive. Loves to call. Call call call. 24/7. Should I bet/fold or check/fold this river? He popped me on the overcard...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

this is ok.

WalkAmongUs · #7 11-04-2005, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (15 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls $0.41 (All-In), Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (18.10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 24.10 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great example of how postflop mistakes can snowball. If I had of led out on this flop like I should have UTG would have raised and then UTG+1 would have reraised. I then could have safely folded, knowing I was beat.

As it was, it was only 2 bets back to me and I figured it was close, but that I was getting proper odds.

Betting the flop would have saved me a decent amount of bets.

milesdyson · #8 11-04-2005, 02:43 PM

hand 2: if i were villain, i would note, "crazy maniac lag. couldn't slow down w/ qq on J9885 board against a preflop cap"

tiltaholic · #9 11-04-2005, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (15 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls $0.41 (All-In), Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (18.10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 24.10 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great example of how postflop mistakes can snowball. If I had of led out on this flop like I should have UTG would have raised and then UTG+1 would have reraised. I then could have safely folded, knowing I was beat.

As it was, it was only 2 bets back to me and I figured it was close, but that I was getting proper odds.

Betting the flop would have saved me a decent amount of bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

i really don't think calling 2 bets on that flop is remotely close getting 9.5:1 not closing the action.

WalkAmongUs · #10 11-04-2005, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hand 2: if i were villain, i would note, "crazy maniac lag. couldn't slow down w/ qq on J9885 board against a preflop cap"

[/ QUOTE ]

Cut me some slack. I was nearing the end of a 100BB downswing in one session. I WANTED this QQ to win.

I was on semi-tilt. Of course its obvious to me now this should have been let go...