Really confused now about checkraising...

[MikeRand2000]

Hey all -

Not sure if this belongs in this forum or beginners, but I'm getting very confused about checkraises.

Per the SSH section on Protecting Strong hands, it seems that Miller et. al. recommend using a check raise to protect vs. weak draws when a normal bet won't handle it. As far as I can tell, this usually happens in early position with 8-10 SB pots (pretty common in Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10).

However, it seems to me that these are also the pots where missing a checkraise is far more dangerous (because the free cards are worth a lot more). That being said, has anyone figured out how to balance the tradeoff between needing to protect hands in large 10-14 SB pots and missing a checkraise attempt? Right now I feel like my flop play on 6-8 SB pots is fine (early or late position), but I start getting really confused in the 10-16 SB range (with anything higher than that being a "wait for the turn" hand).

Thanks much,

Mike

[milesdyson]

You really need to post a hand or two that you thought were troublesome.

[MikeRand2000]

Well, here's the one that almost made me stab myself with a soup spoon. Call it a 10 SB pot for all intents and purposes, as once I bet, everyone else has at least 10.4:1.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.05.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, BB folds.

River: (7.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

[Bradyams]

Would you rather give your opponents 10.4:1 on the flop or 10.4:0? You most likely have the best hand. You aren't betting here to protect your hand, you're betting for value. Bet the flop!

[MikeRand2000]

So, is the nuance that I'm missing that you bet your "strong" hands to protect your hand (and thus a checkraise would be better for value), but you can bet your "very strong hands" (like TPTK) for value and not worry as much about risking a checkraise miss to "protect"?

[ArturiusX]

Bet this everytime. Why would anyone bet this for you? They'll take the free card everytime, and your leaving money at the table.

[Bradyams]

You're hand is strong, but not nearly strong enough to give away a free card. A free card could give bottom pair two pair, and bottom pair may have possibly folded the flop to a bet. You need to bet your strong hands for value. Don't be so worried about protecting your hand. You are still a favorite to a OESDs. Even if the straight card hits it's still rare that someone has it. Most people at these limits are just calling down with mid pairs, and UI pocket fours. You are usually ahead the whole field in this situation, just bet the flop, and don't risk it getting checked through.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, here's the one that almost made me stab myself with a soup spoon. Call it a 10 SB pot for all intents and purposes, as once I bet, everyone else has at least 10.4:1.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.05.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, BB folds.

River: (7.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, there are lots of reasons a check-raise is bad:

1) You were the PFR. You can't expect someone behind you to bet.
2) The pot isn't contested in very many ways, so the check-raise loses value.
3) There are only two players behind you. That's dangerously few to attempt a check-raise.
4) You cannot always protect your hand. Sometimes the best you can do is to bet for value.
5) It's not even clear that you *need* to protect your hand with a check-raise. The flop is fairly ragged, so it's most likely you're not up against 5-outers.

[MikeRand2000]

I thought the whole point of protecting my hand was making sure that I wasn't giving odds to the 4-5 out hands out there. If I just bet here, the 98-type hands out there are calling profitably to gutshots.

If I understand y'all correctly, then, there would be times that I wouldn't protect my hand against weak draws in 10-14SB pots just so that I don't risk giving away a free card on a checkraise attempt? If so, then when IS the right time to try a checkraise? When I have something worse than TPTK?

[ArturiusX]

Check raising is hard to explain....

Try to integrate it into your game by posting hands and looking where you can use it, rather then trying to apply it anywhere.