Q8s on the button

[Mikey]

i'm in a loose 10-20 game and I find Qh8h on the button, normally I don't play this hand, but my opponent who is wreckless and loose agressive limps in the cutoff after UTG limps in.

The SB calls. BB checks and we see a flop.

Flop is 8c 5s 5h.

Its checked to UTG who bets, the cuttoff raises, I reraise.
Both blinds fold, UTG calls, the cutoff calls.

Note on the game: Right now its 8 handed The game is usually a loose agressive game, with 4-6 players taking a flop.

UTG is a conservative player who seems to be one of the few players at the table who seems to have a clue and has some type of strategic play. He also is weak tight in some aspects where he fails to value bet fearing scare cards, with such hands as AA earlier. he raises premium hands from any position.

The cutoff is as loose as they come. He's usually agressive preflop and on the the flop. If he is agressive on the turn with a raise he usually has a pretty good hand. He paid off a flush of mine when I lead bet the turn into 5 opponents with the 5s8s from the SB and he called 2 times on a board of J 4s 2s turn 7s, river 8c. with Js9d. He's not the type you can move off a hand nor is he the type you should try to bluff. He is the type you bet into when you have it, and check when you don't.

So, now onto the hand.

UTG calls 2 cold from my reraise, and the cutoff calls.

I'm thinking that if UTG put the call in he must have a 5 in his hand or 67o. since I don't believe he'd limp in with a premium PP and there would be some slight hesitation in calling of my reraise not because he respects me but because of the presence of the board followed by the action.

On the turn falls an Ah.

Giving me a flush draw with my orignal top pair top kicker.

Both of my opponents check to me.

Now do I fire a bet here risking a checkraise from a probable trips or do I check here and take the free card.

Before I decided what I was going to do, I knew I pretty much had the cutoff beat, he was probably raising with an 8 in his hand, and the likelyhood of my 8 being bigger than his 8 is good. i figure I have him almost crushed here where he is drawing to 3 outs at best, so I'm not too worried about him being in the hand.
I also felt that if UTG did infact have a 5, he would checkraise blast the cutoff out of the hand, leaving himself with me (the underdog) in the hand and now since I picked up the heart draw I had an easy call on the turn if he did reraise.

Is it worth risking a bet here from a probable checkraise if UTG has a 5 or if he doesn't than he has a straight draw with 67.

Should I check and let the river slide off, or charge on through with a bet.

Pot Size is currently 7BB.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]

i'm in a loose 10-20 game and I find Qh8h on the button, normally I don't play this hand, but my opponent who is wreckless and loose agressive limps in the cutoff after UTG limps in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading right here.

And not because I don't care.

But because I don't understand.

Why on earth would you consider limping on the button with Q8s against three or four opponents?

I'll continue reading this thread if you can make a case for limping. But right now this hand is in the same boat as 72o. I'd never limp it from the button in this case, so I don't care about how to play it in this particular instance.

That's not to say I'd never limp Q8s on the button. I'd just never limp it HERE. If there are seven limpers and they're all loose/passive, sure, I'll call on the button. Maybe. I think SSHE says play this hand if there are 6-8 players to the flop. Oy vey.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking that if UTG put the call in he must have a 5 in his hand or 67o. since I don't believe he'd limp in with a premium PP and there would be some slight hesitation in calling of my reraise not because he respects me but because of the presence of the board followed by the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about 99/TT/A8? He's a conservative player, a little bit of a clue, and weak-tight in some aspects but he limps UTG with 67? That doesn't add up for me.

With that Ah, you're basically freerolling against another 8, but you'll split the majority of the time so you lose a little value for a bet.

If you think UTG will fold a better hand or splitting hand here, I'd bet. The A is kind of a scare card, but since he called 2 more on the flop he probably isn't letting it go now.

I'd check, if I gave your opponents a wider range I'd lean towards bet.

[Piiop]

Wow, this limp is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

[flawless_victory]

i mthpught you were gonna tell him to raise... haha.
that limp is fine.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, this limp is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shrug. I don't like playing slightly -EV hands in position.

And I play very, very soft games.

I guess I'm too tight.

Edit: Q8s is the absolute last hand listed in Group 7 hands in HEPFAP. There is no way that this hand will be more than five-handed or fewer than four-handed. So you're going to be up against three or four opponents. Three-to-four opponents is the worst number of opponents for virtually every hand. The button isn't enough. Playing this hand in this situation will cost you money in the long run.

No. I should say it will cost me money in the long run. I have no intentions of ever trying to show a profit with this hand in this preflop situation. To each his own.

[Mackas]

Like Boxtree I think playing the hand at all is a mistake.

That notwithstanding I would take the free card on the turn. Even if you are in front (which I think is unlikely as outlined below) and UTG has a 67 draw you won't push him out (or the loose CO) with the raise anyway so your raise does nothing to increase your chances of winning the hand. You might make two extra BB in the unlikely event you are in front and they both call and miss whatever outs they have or you could end up charging yourself 2BB to try and make your draw if UTG does have a 5. You could even be drawing dead:

If he is as conservative / weak tight as you describe does he really bet out 67 here? What hands would a conservative weak tight player who "has a clue" play preflop UTG (and not raise with) that fit this board anyway? I think 67s unlikely if he really is conservative / weak tight? 45s and 56s are even more unlikely which leaves in my opinion A5s, A8s, 88, 55, (unlikely given his lead on the flop), 99, TT and again an unlikely 66 and 77. All in all then given the A on the turn I think there is a very real chance that you are already drawing dead, a possibility that you are drawing to 8 or at most 9 outs, and a very remote possibility that you are in front.

All in all fold preflop, don't three bet the flop but once you have done that and reached the turn just take the free card.

This is the point where you justify things by explaining you didn't mean he was conservative and weak tight or that conservative and weak tight players in this game do play small suited connectors UTG in this game ...

Good Luck

Mackas

[onegymrat]

Hi Mikey,

By your description of everything, I think you need to see the river. Getting check-raised on the turn would not get you there, and you would have to fold. Take the freebie and call one bet on the river unimproved.

[bicyclekick]

[censored] I'd have limped without much if any hesitation.

You guys are too tight. Q8s isn't a great hand, you're right...but I'm almost sure I can play it for a positive expectation vs the donkey's I play with live and I'm sure this game is pretty similar. They're just so easy to dominate postflop and you're going to have the best position.

Ez call.

[Cancuk]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Mikey,

By your description of everything, I think you need to see the river. Getting check-raised on the turn would not get you there, and you would have to fold. Take the freebie and call one bet on the river unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would fold to a c/r on the turn? If you get c/r'd and the maniac folds, that's 10BB in the pot. You have up to 12 outs. You're getting 10-1 on your money. You need to call the turn and fold the river UI.

or am i missing something?