AT flops a flush draw - how to play?

[AlphaWice]

cheapo MonteCarlo sat; 3 tables left

I think lack of sleep caused me to play this hand sub-optimally.

PokerStars Game #3478698031: Tournament #16918811, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2005/12/30 - 09:07:46 (ET)
Table '16918811 19' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: briarwood (8660 in chips)
Seat 2: letsfly (18118 in chips)
Seat 4: knightll (6100 in chips)
Seat 5: evets1 (28982 in chips)
Seat 6: Nightstare (13705 in chips)
Seat 8: AlphaWice (6125 in chips)
Seat 9: flo599 (2995 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AlphaWice [Th Ah]
knightll: folds
evets1: calls 200
Nightstare: folds
AlphaWice: calls 200
flo599: folds
briarwood: calls 100
letsfly: checks
*** FLOP *** [8c 4h 9h]
briarwood: checks
letsfly: checks
evets1: checks
AlphaWice: bets 800
briarwood: folds
letsfly: calls 800
evets1: folds
*** TURN *** [8c 4h 9h] [Qs]
letsfly: checks
AlphaWice: checks
*** RIVER *** [8c 4h 9h Qs] [3d]
letsfly: checks
AlphaWice: bets 1600

Your river bet seems textbook example of "the bet from out of nowhere" in John Feeney's Inside the Poker Mind. If I have a pocket pair or any part of the flop I'm quite likely to be calling.

As far as the play of the hand, you pretty much telegraphed your play. It seems to scream out weak busted draw. I'm probably raising preflop, semibluffing the flop and semi-bluffing again on the turn.

Betting like that, the only hands that give you real troubles are the sets and any JT. Even still, I doubt the opponent would be on the stall with those hands because of the draws on the board.

This looks to me like a hand where on the river you realized you possibly should have taken the hand down earlier, and are now trying to make up for it.

[AlphaWice]

I am interested in other opinions, especially re: PF raising (I didn't think the limp was a prob), and the riv bet.

To original replier:

Do you call this bet on riv with 66, for example??

I also feel like, part of what you are saying is only because you saw my hand in the HH. I don't disagree with the turn bet, but I disagree some other statements, one of which being (paraphrasing) "my hand is so easy to read." Then, do you call with AK here?

<u> What should I do on the river,</u> if I had bet the turn as well?

<font color=" blue">Also, are you saying (with your "raise pf, bet flop and turn") that one should donk off a good chunk of their stack on 3 streets with only medium holdings and no blind pressure?</font>

[woodguy]

I raise to 700 PF, to take control of the betting and limit the number of players who see the flop, the less the better when I'm holding ATs, and you can never put the blinds on a hand with any degree of certainty.

Given the limp and the flop bet, I think you have to bet the turn since the BB may just be calling to keep your "positional" bet on the flop honest, so you need to tell him "no, I actually have a hand here"

If he calls the turn and I don't improve, I can check behing on the river, since if we both have missed draws I may win the pot with A high anyhow, and if he called the first two streets with TP or 2nd pair, the river card does nothing to change the strength of his hand, and he'll probably call again.

If he beats me with 2nd pair good for him, but if he called twice I'm not going to fire a 3rd barrell here without improving.

Back to the way you played it, I'm a little lost on the river, he may be in check/call mode with a 9, if he has a busted draw I win when I check. I'm not sure I can make him lay down a better hand here given that he call a PSB on the flop, and that he's pretty deep and will close the action for the hand.

His river check really makes me want to bet instinctually, but I think I'm getting called a lot here when beaten.

Regards,
Woodguy

[AlphaWice]

I noticed both repliers told me to raise preflop. This is completely against my line of thinking. Why raise preflop? I believe my ace is too weak, and I am only limping in late because of the flush draw (with ATo I would fold outright here.) Is this a strong leak in my game? Can someone explain whether it is good to raise PF here with ATs, and why?

[Dave D]

I also wouldn't raise ATs here, and would probably fold AT you're not alone. I'm not sure how many place/win seats, but it sounds like you're close and that's another reason to try to stall out.

I would bet the flop only 600 (a pot bet looks suspicously big here, 2/3-3/4 is my standard) and follow up on the turn. If he calls me all the way, and I'm giving him awful odds to draw, I check behind on the river and hope my ace is good.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I noticed both repliers told me to raise preflop. This is completely against my line of thinking. Why raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) To limit the number of players in the hand. Limping encourages more players (especially the blinds) to come in behind you. Most flop miss most hand, therefore I want to limit the number of hands in the flop, so if I miss and have few opponents, chances are they missed too and I can win the pot with a cont bet on the flop

2) To take control of the action. As soon as you are making your opponents react to you, NLHE is much easier. If I raised PF I can take the pot down on the flop with a cont-bet that has meaning (i.e. it represents that I have a hand)

3) To represent a bigger hand that you have.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe my ace is too weak,

[/ QUOTE ]

Your opponents don't know that, why tell them with a limp?

The open limper already told you his hand was weak, raise it up and put him on the defensive.

4) Hitting the flop is hard. You miss most flops, constantly limping to hit flops is a leak, unless you are really deep.

5) Easier decision later in the hand. If you represent strength once or twice in a hand and still get played back at, you can give your opponent credit for a hand and fold comfortably. If you limp often you have no clue where you are in the hand and decsiions get tougher.

6) Limping to hit a flush doesn't pay enough. If you make the flush, you rarely get paid for it as its pretty obvious what you have.

7) To win the pot PF. There is 500 in the pot when it gets to you. If you win it outright on the flop, life is good, easy chips.

8) Raising is fun


That's all I can think of right now (at work), perhaps others can add to the list.

Regards,
Woodguy

[ansky451]

Given my position, I probably raise pf to 800. Although I think it is more of a style question than anything else. I tend to have very liberal raising standards mainly because I feel I can maximize my edge by isolating myself in position. With my transition to cash games lately, I’d say this has been my biggest improvement in MTTs. One of the most important concepts is NL hold’em, is to isolate yourself against the fish in position. This seems like a good spot to put yourself in a pot with a limper in position, or take the blinds if they fold. If I had been next to act after the limper, I’d probably limp in. However, the CO is ALMOST the button [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], so you should try to make sure you are last to act, and can represent the flop strongly.

Then on the flop I’d obviously play very aggressively. Pound it on the flop, pound it again on the turn. Your hand is too strong with folding equity and lots and lots of outs. Given the way you played it preflop I’d probably fire again on the turn, maybe even push. Your river bet is gross. That will get called by ANY pair every time. It is a fairly useless bet unless you know he is a nut peddler or something, but then that makes no sense cause why would he have seen the river with something marginal. You have a lot more folding equity by firing on the turn, not the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe my ace is too weak, and I am only limping in late because of the flush draw (with ATo I would fold outright here.) Is this a strong leak in my game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding is extremely weak tight (and this is coming from someone who is often accused of being very weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

Pre-flop in that situation, almost any hand worth playing is worth a raise. The raise sets up how you are going to play the rest of the hand.

As for the rest of the hand, let's ask this question. If someone else would have bet into you on the flop, would you have called or raised? The answer is almost certainly yes.

Any hand that is worth a cold call or overcall is almost certainly worth enough to bet out, and probably call a check raise in most cases.

The only strength in the board is in your favor. It is entirely possible that you are ahead on the flop. Why give your opponents free shots to put you at a disadvantage?

This is a hand that I'd be looking to take down on the flop or turn, based upon the way I set the hand up preflop and on the flop.

Sure an opponent may put you on flush draw with no pair, or straight draw with no pair. But by betting out, you are making them pay to find out.

You have perhaps 7-9 outs twice for the nut flush, and another 2-3 outs twice for top pair which seems likely to hold up on its own.

That's more than enough strength to be betting out on the flop.