Misplayed TT

[crunchy1]

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TT is a not capping hand preflop against 3 opponents because there are *4* hands that dominate it and another 90-some combinations that it's even money to preflop all of which are about the only hands that fit into an unknown, PF 3-bettor's range.

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FYP.

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if there is *any* chance of getting JJ/TT/AK/AQ to fold the turn you *must* take it.

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There isn't any chance of folding a top pair on the turn. They all just made two pair and are calling down or raising (as Hero should have).

[thejameser]

no reads + no overcards = calldown for me. you're giving too much away folding in this situation to a couple of unknowns. UTG didn't cap the flop and then leads the turn obviously trying to represent a boat or 2 i think. you speculate too much without reads, its kind of weak thinking, really. oh, and i would have capped PF. call the flop and then go to check/call safe-mode on the turn. i would have to see a showdown given the board and the unknown opposition.

[crunchy1]

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Turn: (11.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.
When UTG bets into me after being raised the previous round, I am really worried. I think he may have flopped two pair

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This is a great reason to raise - you just turned 2-pair!

UTG - a lot more likely to have flopped top-pair, or two-pair with 76. He probably didn't limp 72/62 UTG and if he did he would've probably gone for the checkraise on the turn. Players that limp 72/62 UTG don't think to lead the turn in hopes of 3-betting when they catch the boat - they think check-raise

Button - maybe on an over pair - maybe not. Put some pressure on him. Unless he's a maniac, or has a huge hand, another raise from you will probably slow him down. A call wouldn't be horrible either because he may already be in call-down mode against UTG's turn lead.

Personally - I think I'm taking an overpair to showdown most of the time - especially at 2/4. I could find a fold against an player I had a read on but, not often against an unknown. If he turns over AA/KK at showdown then so be it. That's poker. However - I think at 2/4 most players are going into call-down mode with big pairs when you raise the board pairing the turn.

It's true that raising the turn may cost you an extra bet to lose at showdown - but, it also gains you extra bets from up to two players when you're ahead and a small percentage of the time will fold a hand that might have won on the river. I'd say on the turn raising &gt;&gt; calling &gt;&gt; folding - and I'm planning on showing down.

[thejameser]

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He probably didn't limp 72/62 UTG and if he did he would've probably gone for the checkraise on the turn. Players that limp 72/62 UTG don't think to lead the turn in hopes of 3-betting when they catch the boat - they think check-raise

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anyone playing those hands can't be thinking too much. oh, and i could see a turn raise as well. what if you are 3bet?

[crunchy1]

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i could see a turn raise as well. what if you are 3bet?

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I'm calling and probably calling one on the river (possibly not overcalling if UTG calls).

[BWebb]

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No reads on the table yet.


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I'm not folding unless action gets crazy on the turn.

[baronzeus]

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Hi,

Your right, it was badly played. Cap preflop, cap the flop, you sucked out on two pair on the turn so raise again. *only* then can you fold your tens if you get 3 bet.

Later,
MarkV.

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Capping preflop and capping the flop would be super spew w/o a read.

I call down at the turn, unless its 2 to me

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This is not true. I cap the flop every time with JJ here, and since he has 2 opponents, he can cap with TT.

[krimson]

Preflop and flop play are good. I would call down turn, the button will probably back off and just call down for the same reason you folded. We still have a big hand here and being raised from behind wouldn't be horrid either, i'd want to show this down except maybe if it gets raised and reraised back to you on the turn.

[mdob]

I don't like it. A flop three-bet could easily mean A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K/Q/J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. His pocket pair range can't go much lower than 99, but he could easily think that's best since we called his three-bet pre-flop. This pot's big enough so that the chance we're best is enough to keep us going. I think we need to raise the turn to charge a flush draw as much as possible and let him make a terrible call if he has a lower pair. If he's got a bigger pocket pair, we're screwed, of course, but so be it.

[MVicuna]

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if there is *any* chance of getting JJ/TT/AK/AQ to fold the turn you *must* take it.

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There isn't any chance of folding a top pair on the turn. They all just made two pair and are calling down or raising (as Hero should have).

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You know your advice was *exactly* the same in the post you made in this same thread and you listed this EXACT same reason.

Also, with two EP limpers its likely they hold some of the reraisers over cards in their hands making it less likely they have them two of them or will hit them on the flop. So your equity in this hand stays at over 50% while two over cards hands shrink to 30% with just 1 out gone.

So when your dominated your cap loses 0.8SB of EV and when your ahead your cap gains 2SB of EV. Not capping TT preflop is wrong with 3 opponents unless we are 100% certain then have an over pair.

So let me restate it clearly. TT is a 50% favorite to win the pot with *three* opponents as its likely the one of their over cards is in some elses hand given two EP limpers.

I hope this is clear, and don't muddy the water saying the EP limpers don't have to have the re-raisers outs, its more likely they do then not.

Later,
MarkV.