Hand To Flame About

[bobbyi]

I played this hand yesterday in a really, really good $20/40 at the Borgata. I like the way I played it. I think there are some here who may not. But maybe I'm wrong.

Cast of Characters:
EP: This guy is awful. His preflop hand selection is atrocious; he will sometimes limp in any position with a hand like T3o. He doesn't seem to fully understand the meaning of certain betting sequences. There was a hand where I had three-bet preflop with AK, the flop came TJQ and I played it strongly. By the end of the hand, it was pretty obvious to everyone what I had. The initial preflop raiser had JJ, so he couldn't get away until the end. I have no idea what this guy had, but when a blank came on the river, he suddenly raised me, I three-bet and of course my hand was good. But generally the way he played the hand made no sense. Other hands have been the same. I think he is a novice because he has had trouble figuring how many chips he needed to put out and has done things like blatant string-raises that made it clear that he was unaware of the rules about that. He is eagerly eying the $40/80 game and thinking of moving over there, but I think he can't figure out how to get on the list (we aren't helping him).

The field: Loose. Moderately passive. There are no players who I would consider solid. Several (like EP above) are terrible, and some are merely bad. Preflop hand selection is bad all around. Plenty of seven-handed flops, and people sometimes stick around with hopeless stuff, particularly in big multiway pots (we've had some hands where more than twenty small bets would go in on the flop alone).

Preflop: Four players limp. The small blind completes. I raise out of the big blind with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. All call.

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks. I check. EP bets. 3 players call, including SB. I call.

Turn: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB checks. I bet. Only EP and SB call.

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks. I bet. Only EP calls.

[Riverman]

Check-Raise the turn. Someone always bets for you, and they never 3-bet without having you beat.

[Stork]

Looks pretty standard to me, what part did you predict would be flamed? And I don't agree with the above poster on check-raising the turn, I think this turn could easily get checked through, or sometimes when you bet EP may raise. I think betting out here is much better than check raising.

[TStoneMBD]

i certainly bet the flop with your gutshot draw

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks pretty standard to me, what part did you predict would be flamed?

[/ QUOTE ]
There was a hand recently from Fianchetto where he had raised AKo from the SB against many limpers. A lot of people didn't like it. They said that you "make it correct for them to call on the flop with middle pair or a gutshot" and thus shouldn't raise. I used to hear that argument on this board years ago and I can't believe it hasn't died yet. It is as mindboggling devoid of logic as "I'm moving up to the high limit games where people play correctly because that's the only place you can win; it's impossible to win in the low limit games because everyone plays any two cards so your good hands always get sucked out on". But I thought someone would attack the raise, especially because I had mentioned that "the field" tends to be tenacious in large multiway pots.

Still, raising AJo from the BB is admittedly a much closer decision than raising AKo out of the SB. But against people who want to limp with T3o, my hand is too good not to raise here. Letting people see the flop cheap with their trash hands is what "makes their play correct" while punishing their implied odds with a raise is what makes them incorrect, not the other way around.

Also, I thought some people would dislike the check-call on the flop. Recently, analyzing all hands in terms of "cleaning up outs" has become very fashionable, even if there are other considersations at play.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-Raise the turn. Someone always bets for you, and they never 3-bet without having you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
I considered check-raising the turn, but I don't really like it here. If there is a bet, it will very likely come from the player to my left. He will usually follow through after the betting the flop. This means that my raise will not face anyone with two bets cold, and thus will be unlikely to make anyone fold. It will pull in extra money, but will not increase my chance of winning. If he didn't bet, in this game I thought it would check around fairly often, and sometimes a hand that would have folded if I bet will end up winning (or maybe taking half my pot if someone would lay down an ace, but they might not). So by going for the check-raise, I risk the whole pot in order to potentially collect a few bets. The pot is large and there are a lot of hands I would like to see fold here, so I thought betting was better.

The fact that I will only get 3-bet by a better hand would be useful if I were drawing dead against a better hand, because then I can fold to it and give up nothing in the process. But here, I have a gutshot that may be good for at least half the pot. It would suck to let a guy with a slowplayed set push me off my hand. Or I could call, but then I'm putting in a bet when I know I'm behind and aren't sure if I have any outs. (I don't think anyone in this game would have been aggressive enough here to three-bet with two pair or less, although I suppose it isn't impossible).

[roy_miami]

I think raising with AJo from the BB is pretty horrible regardless of the trash these idiots are limping with. For me, AJo isn't even playable in early position. I actually believe raising AJo on the button would be debatable after 4 people had limped as I'm of the raise to trap with big suited cards and raise to isolate with big off-suit cards camp. I also think drawing to overcards when there is a possible straight on board is usually a bad idea, but because the pot is big and you have the sucker end of a gut shot and its a rainbow its probably worth a call to see the turn.

[Nightwish]

The preflop raise is marginal. Everything else looks great.

The turn would be a great opportunity to check-raise if only 1 or 2 people had called EP's flop bet. As it stands, with so many people having called his flop bet, he may chicken out on the turn, and it might get checked around.

[Subfallen]

Hi all,

What's a good plan if EP raises bobby's turn bet?

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising with AJo from the BB is pretty horrible regardless of the trash these idiots are limping with. For me, AJo isn't even playable in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]
You may be right that this hand can be worth folding in early position. But I'm not in early position. I'm in the big blind, which means I'm in the very last position (preflop) rather than the first, so it is the complete opposite situation. I don't see how you can lump these together. When I'm UTG, there are nine players still to be heard from, so there is a good chance that AJo is dominated. Thus, it is a marginal hand. When I act in the BB, there are zero players left to be heard from and no one has raised, so I am almost certain that my hand isn't dominated. So now my hand is looking pretty good. Saying that you would fold it UTG and thus don't like it in the big blind is like saying that you would sometimes fold top pair/ no kicker in a certain situation fearing domination, so you should also fold top pair/ top kicker. It just doesn't make sense to me. One is a situation where you greatly fear domination and the other is a scenario where it is extremely unlikley.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm of the raise to trap with big suited cards and raise to isolate with big off-suit cards camp

[/ QUOTE ]
If I have the best hand, why wouldn't I want to put more money in the pot? Are you saying that if you knew in a certain situation that raising with AKo would fail to isolate, you would just limp?