TPTK heavily reraised

$10NL pacific, .05/10 blinds, 8 handed

Hero($36)
Villain($25)

Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in MP
Hero raises to .50
MP2 calls
MP3 calls
all else fold

Flop ($2ish): Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero leads for $2
MP2 raises to $4
MP3 folds
Hero raises to $10
MP2 pushes all-in for about $17 more

Hero???

Pot is roughly $27 now
$17 to call for about 1:1.58 odds... worth it w/ TPTK?

Not many reads, but MP2 doesn't seem to have played a lot of hands. Should I be calling anything like this down at these stakes? Thoughts about my flop re-raise?

Results:

(hero folded)

[Malachii]

Time to fold. Btw, 3 betting this flop is bad. If Villain had any brains he'd just smooth call... the pot is huge in relation to your stack and he had two more streets to massage the rest of it in. Call, lead turn and fold to a raise.

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Time to fold. Btw, 3 betting this flop is bad. If Villain had any brains he'd just smooth call... the pot is huge in relation to your stack and he had two more streets to massage the rest of it in. Call, lead turn and fold to a raise.

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Wouldn't the 3bet at the flop be more effective here than a call / bet on the turn?

My thinking:
- the 3bet cost me a total of $8 more than my inital bet. I immediately find out if he has a hand or not
- If I call and then bet, it's $2 to call, and then the pot at the turn is $10. I can bet about $6-8 here, but it's the same price as the 3bet really.

The basic question is then... how is seeing the turn going to help me? If he's ahead, he has a set, and an extra queen will only give him a boat. If he has KK, i'm ahead with a higher 2-pair.

Could you elaborate more on why the call/ bet turn is better?

[Malachii]

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the 3bet cost me a total of $8 more than my inital bet. I immediately find out if he has a hand or not

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No, you don't. If he calls, he could be calling with an OESD, a set, or better/weaker queen.
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- If I call and then bet, it's $2 to call, and then the pot at the turn is $10. I can bet about $6-8 here, but it's the same price as the 3bet really.

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Yes, but if he calls then all you have to worry about is the river, and if he raises you you're done with the hand. If you 3 bet you have to worry about 2 streets.

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The basic question is then... how is seeing the turn going to help me?

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Because you want a cheap showdown, which involes playing the turn and river for as little as money as possible but without giving a free card to a straight draw.
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Could you elaborate more on why the call/ bet turn
is better?

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It's called a stop and go and it should be one of the tools you use if your flop bet gets raised and you have an overpair or TP/TK. Basically, lots of people will raise top pair, sets, or draws on the flop. Very few people will raise draws or top pair on the turn, so it keeps the pot small on the flop, helps you see a cheaper showdown, and gives you more information as to where you are in the hand.

Hope this helps.

Yes, but if he calls then all you have to worry about is the river, and if he raises you you're done with the hand. If you 3 bet you have to worry about 2 streets.

It's all starting to make a little more sense. The point of a cheap showdown sounds good to me. My question is this though, since I'm OOP, what's the plan on the turn/river?

Here are the possibilities:
I bet turn, he calls. On river I ?
I bet turn, he raises, I fold, right?
I check turn, he bets, I call.

After a called bet to the river
After he calls my bet on the turn, do I bet here again?
Fold to a raise?

Or check/call... call how big of a bet?

Yes, lots of questions [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Malachii]

Basically you're concerned with not losing your stack and getting the maximum value out of inferior hands. So, again, the play is make a small value bet and fold if he raises you... it gets maximum value out of a weaker queen and if he raises, you can fold with confidence as he surely has you beaten.

[Malachii]

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better/weaker queen.

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Make that a weaker queen... I need to do a better job proof reading my posts...

[Benholio]

'Finding out where you are at' is overrated. If you 3-bet and he folds, then you just found out that he was way behind and you extracted the minimum. If you call the flop raise, then lead the turn, you will make more money from way behind hands more often. Either line loses a similar amount of money to a way ahead hand.

edit: Plus all that stuff Malachii said

Your calculation of the pot is way off, and that also messes up your calculation of your odds. There's 1.65 preflop, and 37 on the flop, so you have to call 17 to win 38.65, or better than two to one.

Having said that, this still reeks of a set.

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Your calculation of the pot is way off, and that also messes up your calculation of your odds. There's 1.65 preflop, and 37 on the flop, so you have to call 17 to win 38.65, or better than two to one.

Having said that, this still reeks of a set.

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Do you still lay it down here?
Should I not be 3-betting this? After his reraise, is this a sort of WA/WB situation where I should just check/call it down?