Hypothetical Question

[ALL1N]

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big blind will usually call with all of his hands. So it is all about winning chances of kings against 2 more or less random hands.

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You're kidding, right?? He'll call with Ax and pocket pairs and no more.

[catlover]

Definitely I agree if we are raised on any street, we should just call down. You don't reraise someone when your cards are face up. Furthermore, frequently on the turn, and always on the river, we should refrain from even *betting*.

The problem is that to answer David's question, we need to know what that "game theory optimal amount" for folding is. And that's very difficult, especially considering that it's board dependent.

[ALL1N]

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Definitely I agree if we are raised on any street, we should just call down. You don't reraise someone when your cards are face up. Furthermore, frequently on the turn, and always on the river, we should refrain from even *betting*.

The problem is that to answer David's question, we need to know what that "game theory optimal amount" for folding is. And that's very difficult, especially considering that it's board dependent.

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I don't think David was after an exact answer, and the game theory folds aren't going to save us much.

But if you want to work it out, the optimal amount to fold is 1/(1 + Pot), and this works fine on the river, but as you work back each street the 2 K outs have to be mixed in. Eh, goodnight!

[UMTerp]

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You're kidding, right?? He'll call with Ax and pocket pairs and no more.

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Why would calling with a pocket pair be any more profitable for the BB than calling with a suited connector? Remember, aces are "outs" for him too.

[ALL1N]

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Why would calling with a pocket pair be any more profitable for the BB than calling with a suited connector? Remember, aces are "outs" for him too.

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Aces are not outs. We aren't folding if an ace comes up (any more than the game theory optimum, that is).

Suited connectors flop draws, which suck in a 2BB pot when they've got no fold equity, or underpairs, which suck full stop.

[arod15]

About 80$ an hour. If hey were face up, oppenents with pocket pairs would have all the incentive to play and catch a set. It would depend on how many times people would suck out on you. It would be more but not that much more...

I'd be making $500.00/hr.

I don't think the kings can beat any decent game at all.
At the very least the situation is not nearly
as clear-cut as the first few posters claim it to be.

It's all about the FTP.

If the other players are willing to make 'negative' EV
calls (raises?) preflop to set themselves up for the huge
EV of playing against face-up cards.

Poker is more about uncertainty and deception than cold
odds. And the kings give up way more than they get.

[ALL1N]

In a typical ten handed 30-60 game where you normally make $50 an hour, what would your win rate be if you were dealt two face up kings every hand and your opponents didn't collude?

I don't think I suggested collusion, except maybe between
one's preflop self and postflop self. I do believe that
the more players who play correctly against the kings the
worse it will be for the kings, but thats not collusion either.