SSHE Book Club Discussion - Part Two: Preflop Concepts

[MEbenhoe]

In the chapter title "Using This Book" the authors write:
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, we anticipate that some readers will concentrate most heavily on the preflop chapter, particularly the two preflop charts that we provide....We do not recommend that you do this. It is basically a waste of time....Understanding postflop concepts and play is far more essential to maximizing your win rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this statement to be very true. The meat of this book is the next couple sections. However, because many people still have problems with their preflop play this is an important section to go over.

I'm going to treat this a little differently than most sections and not try to dig in too deep in this introduction, and instead throw it open to any questions there might be on the preflop advice given in SSHE.

Basically above all the important thing to keep in mind is that Tight and aggressive as always is the key to success in preflop play. Don't play too many hands, rarely cold call raises, and be aggressive with the hands you're going to play.

With that lets get the discussion going. What parts are troubling you or do you not understand? What do you possibly disagree with? What do you think are some strong concepts to take out of this section?

[shadow29]

I have trouble with listing A2s in EP as "play".

Anyone else turbomuck that garbage?

[theghost]

[ QUOTE ]
I have trouble with listing A2s in EP as "play".

Anyone else turbomuck that garbage?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's only recommended in the "loose" games table, correct? I have never been in a loose enough game to use it - "tight" recommendations suit my style, for the most part.

Some of the iffy stuff for me (in "tight") is "any 2 suited over 10 in EP," still not sure why JTs or QTs is a good idea from EP

[Toonces]

I think my biggest difficulty with this section was applying exceptions. Should you usually play any 2 suited cards as the SB, or only when it's 5-handed or more? How do you treat people that raise you in the big blind? If you are only 2-3 handed in defending a BB, how does that affect the hands you play?

While, I agree that on the decisions that SSH thought about are probably more accurate than ITH, for example, I think that a 2nd level of detail that adds complexity would be helpful to discuss a system that wouldn't be practical to memorize, but may be appropriate for online play when you can use a chart for referencing.

[kevyk]

Nope! There is a very good rationale behind playing a hand like A2s. In small stakes games, the greater number of players in each hand makes any suited hand much more valuable than its offsuit counterpart.

The reason you play A2s is that you will gain EV every time you flop a flush draw, and will also win a greater amount of the time you make top pair compared with A2o.
The presence of backdoor straight and flush draws will often turn -EV situations into +EV situations.

I do think that these are the first hands you should discard as the table gets more tight-aggressive.

[LuckyStiff]

I play mostly in the Party Poker 5/10 game and I have adapted the guidleines for tight games. I find that
strictly following the guidelines produces a VP$IP of about 15% and a PFR of about 6%. The best players seem to have a VP$IP of 12-13% and a PFR in excess of 7.5%. The way I've altered the guidelines is to raise more often with marginal hands (AT; AJ; KQ; 99; KJs; etc.) and to fold small pairs in any position in the absence of previous limpers.


These raises seem to get me into some uncomfortable positions post-flop but I think they are working to increase my total aggression. This seems to have increased the volatility of my returns and it is too early to tell if it has had any effect on the BB/100 ratio.

Any thoughts?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I have trouble with listing A2s in EP as "play".

Anyone else turbomuck that garbage?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty quick to muck this hand unless the game is very loose/passive, which is actually a situation I've found myself in quite a bit recently. I'm all over AXs from whatever position if I expect the pot to not be raised. I may not like top pair, but a chance at a flush, 2-pair, or trips (or a decent straight draw depending on X) is worth the price of admission in these games.

[kevyk]

Miller recommends playing A2s from MP and LP in tight games.

[DonkeyKong]

there have been long threads devoted just to Ace-Rag-Suited from EP...

If you muck A2-suited, you are not giving up much (and you are not gaining much by playing it). If you play really well after the flop, it is worth playing these very marginal hands in a loose/passive game.

[Lost Wages]

On the tight games chart, late position, against a raise, under the exception that 3 players have entered the pot. QJs-T9s are listed as cold-calling hands while ATs and KJs are folds. Intentional or oversight?

Lost Wages