Fish or Shark?

[Roland]

Beer called me a shark, but I’m not convinced…

7 Card Stud High ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter)

3rd Street

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___double bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

River

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets


This was the first hand I got dealt at this table. My notes on seat 5 say “moron”, no notes on seat 3 and seat 6. What do you say?

[Michael Emery]

I dont like the call on fourth. Unless you have notes saying the bring-in with open threes is a little on the wild side, its a fold fourth. 80% of 10-20 players will have you beat when they bet double here from my experience. The better 10-20 players even more often than that. Sometimes with two pair (which you are slightly behind to), sometimes with trips (leaving you as a huge dog). So I'm afraid I have to vote for "fish" off the fourth street call, despite how the hand played out. Since you did call you played the rest of the hand ok. I'm assuming you quickly called the "morons" river bet.

Mike Emery

[AdamK]

I don't like the call on third.
I need a reason not to raise here.
If this is my first hand at the table against some unknown opponents, then every hand i play with an Ace doorcard im going to be raising with.
It may have saved you from getting into this mess.

With the 9s being dead, i would prefer not to play a 4-way pot. I'm guessing you were waiting until 4th to raise, but the 3's put you off.

I will abstain from voting, i need more evidence.

[Michael Emery]

I got so caught up in complaining about fourth street that I forgot to add you needed to raise third. Far too many people nowadays are limping with strong stud hands in late position. While in some cases its correct (tight players have limped in the pot and you have a big pair-blank kicker, you have a big pair-dead card, etc). Many cases raising is absolutely the correct play. This is one of them here. Were probably not looking at tight and selective players that limped in here. We have one guy who limped in with a dead 9, and the "moron", as you classified him, limping in with a 5. I'm guessing your definition of a moron is close to mine, plays too many hands and plays them poorly. All the more reason to raise here. Your pot equity edge is too large to simply call.

Mike Emery

[blackize]

Yeah I agree you must raise here on 3rd. In fact I might even raise 4th, might buy you a free card but will at least get you some info. I dont play 10/20 but at 1/2 and 2/4 the double bet usually indicates a weak two pair or even just the 3's. Id be worried if he bet small since that is more likely to entice people to stick around. This is exactly why you should raise 3rd street to help define the hands you are up against.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
you must raise here on 3rd

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for pointing this out everybody.
I thought calling was correct (mathematically; no attempt to slow play), but as Mike said, my pot equity edge is too large to just call.

[blackize]

Your pot equity is high, and you want to knock out the bring in and any stragglers. Now if you do want to keep the pot small so you can easily fold, then why arent you doing it against a paired doorcard that you arent will to raise with Aces up? Also with the 3 being the bring in, I am much less likely to believe he has trips at the moment because he is holding a random hand, he did not choose to play it. If you arent going to raise third then you have to raise when you likely have the best hand and people are still drawing against you while your outs to a full house are dead. Now out of curiosity am I right in my read that he did not he trip 3's?

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact I might even raise 4th, might buy you a free card but will at least get you some info.

[/ QUOTE ]

It’s very unlikely that I have the best hand on 4th. As Mike said, a typical 10/20 player will have me beaten most of the time. And nobody is giving me a free card with trips here.
However, raising might make sense if I knew this guy better… but he might still re-raise me with two pairs here… and he might get tricky with trips, like simply calling and betting 5th, or check-raising.


[ QUOTE ]

I dont play 10/20 but at 1/2 and 2/4 the double bet usually indicates a weak two pair or even just the 3's. Id be worried if he bet small since that is more likely to entice people to stick around. This is exactly why you should raise 3rd street to help define the hands you are up against.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don’t see people betting the minimum with trips a lot at 5/10 or 10/20. if somebody will call the minimum there’s a good chance he’ll also call a full bet, and why not charge fish like me the maximum?

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Now out of curiosity am I right in my read that he did not he trip 3's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately not. I don’t know why he didn’t bet the river.
But seat 5, who indeed started with fives and made Queens up on the river, was kind enough to bet his hand for him, of course.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact I might even raise 4th

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean fold fourth.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont play 10/20 but at 1/2 and 2/4 the double bet usually indicates a weak two pair or even just the 3's.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main reason you can be near 100% certain that a good player has Rolands aces beat here is the fact that hes betting into three decent looking boards. Good/winning players at 10-20 arent doing that with just open threes. Like I said, it could be two pair (which is what you hope), a small possibility of a three-flush and the open threes, and a very strong (and most likely in this scenario) trips which of course have you crushed.

Mike Emery