Restating the Paradox

[ZeeJustin]

Restating the Paradox

I realize there is already a free will thread, and an omniscience/omnipotence thread, but I think this is worthy of a new one. I don't think a logical refutation of this is possible.

Premise 1: God is Omnipotent and Omnicient.
Premise 2: God created humans.
Premise 3: Those humans have free will.

This logically does not follow. Here is why:

If God is omnipotent, he can create things. He can create an infinite number of things. Since he is also omnicient, how knows the exact result of creating each of those infinite possible creations. Let's say he chooses one of the possible creations to create. How can that creation possibly have free will if God knows exactly what it will do, and chose to create that specific being over an infinite number of other possible beings he could create? By choosing to create that being, he also chose it's fate, therefore it does not have free will.

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Restating the Paradox

How can that creation possibly have free will if God knows exactly what it will do, and chose to create that specific being over an infinite number of other possible beings he could create? By choosing to create that being, he also chose it's fate, therefore it does not have free will.

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The reasoning goes wrong here. What god does is create a being that will freely choose to do x. What god knows is that the being will freely choose to do x. The illusion of incompatibility comes in thinking that because god knows that the being will choose to do x, then the being *must* do x, but again, divine foreknowledge and free will are not incompatible.

All that is required for the being to have free will is for the being to have freely chosen to do x. This does mean that it must have been possible for the being to have chosen to do y instead, but that is not incompatible with god knowing that the being will choose to do x. Of course god cannot be wrong, and that is where the illusion of incompatibility comes in--since god cannot be wrong, how can it be possible for the being to choose y instead? But remember, what god knows is not that the being will do x because there is no other possibility, but that the being will choose to do x even though it was possible for the being to do y.

btw, it's "omniscient."

I just did a search at biblegateway.com for the word "omniscient" - I can't find it in the bible. Am I missing something? Why is God said to be imbued with the ability to see perfectly into the future. Couldn't it be that even a being that can create existence from nothing, still be bounded by certain physical laws? If not, wouldn't he be trapped by his own lack of free will? Or, couldn't he have initially possessed free will and then chosen to give it up for himself and the rest of the prescient beings in the universe?

please ignore my last sentence. I can see it makes no sense.

Hold up. Before you can start to argue whether or not there is a god, you have to define a god. What is the nature of god? What is it that it can/cannot do? Only positive concepts will do, i.e. things god CAN do. We cannot ask what it cannot do (negative definitions). This leads to a fallacy exemplified by St. Anselem, which defines god as "that which nothing greater can be conceived". To continue, this undefined god has to exist in reality, because if it exists only in your mind, you can conceive of something greater; a god that exists in reality, so in order to be the greatest thing that can be conceived, it has to actually exist.

Give me a list of traits and I will show you why they are all contradictory and prove nothing. And hopefully you will not still believe in a god that cannot exist in or out of reality.

I was just curious as to where premise #1 came from - that God is Omnipotent, etc. If what you're saying is that God is omnipotent because God is that which nothing greater can be conceived, then I for one can't conceive of anything close to perfect. Who can? This Anselm arguement for God doesn't make sense.

Traditionally--theologically and philosophically at least--god is supposed to be the perfect being. Being omniscient is part of being perfect.

There are all sorts of possible problems if god is not conceived of as omniscient. If god is not omniscient, then by definition there are things that god does not know. This means that god is fallible since he can make mistakes now due to his ignorance. He can misjudge people for example.

If god is not perfect, then even if there is a 'creator' what you are left with at best is just a very powerful, very smart being. That could just be some super-smart super-advanced alien for all we know.

Hello Philo,

"Traditionally--theologically and philosophically at least--god is supposed to be the perfect being. Being omniscient is part of being perfect."

Why is being omniscient a part of being perfect? Is this a human defined perfection?

"There are all sorts of possible problems if god is not conceived of as omniscient. If god is not omniscient, then by definition there are things that god does not know. This means that god is fallible since he can make mistakes now due to his ignorance. He can misjudge people for example."

God neither sees nor knows all things: (from the skeptics annotated bible)

1. Gen.3:8
"And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord, amongst the trees of the garden."
Gen.4:14
"Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid."
Gen.4:16
"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."
Gen.11:5
"And the Lord came down to see the city and the town."
Gen.18:9
"And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent."
Gen.18:17
"And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do?"
Gen.18:20-21
"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and, if not, I will know."
Gen.22:12
"For now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Num.22:9
"And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?"
Dt.8:2
"God led thee these forty years in the wilderness ... to know what what in thine heart."
Dt.13:3
"The Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God."
2 Chr:32:31
"God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart."
Job 1:7, 2:2
"And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
Hos.8:4
"They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not."


"If god is not perfect, then even if there is a 'creator' what you are left with at best is just a very powerful, very smart being. That could just be some super-smart super-advanced alien for all we know."

Is there anything wrong with this?

"Why is being omniscient a part of being perfect? Is this a human defined perfection?"

As opposed to what sense of perfection?

"God neither sees nor knows all things: (from the skeptics annotated bible)"

The bible has all sorts of anthropomorphic and contradictory conceptions of god--for my part I don't find passages from the bible to be of any use in settling the issue we're discussing.

"If god is not perfect, then even if there is a 'creator' what you are left with at best is just a very powerful, very smart being. That could just be some super-smart super-advanced alien for all we know."

"Is there anything wrong with this?"

Are you kidding? Do you really want to concede that a super-smart super-evolved alien could be god?

[NotReady]

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I realize there is already a free will thread


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Naturalism says we are entirely the result of causes operating according to fixed laws. Where is free will?

Evolution by chance says we are the product of randomness. If all we think and will is random, where is free will?

Free will is only possible for finite beings if God exists.