Do you think this will help or hurt my poker game?

[itsmarty]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
if you are concerned with plugging leaks then the only way to get better is to play against good players period

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That's not even remotely true. You get better by understanding why good players do what they do, and that understanding is gained by study and discussion. Playing against good players, especially without understanding what makes them good, is just a way to lose money.

Martin

[VoraciousReader]

[quote
Are you worrying that playing with bad players is going to make you a worse player? Is that the point of this post? If that is in fact the case, I would be one of the worst players ever! I always choose the game with absolutely the most horrid players and I mop it up, sure it might take a while, but in the end the chips all come my way. The only thing that can make you a worse player is yourself, not other players bad judgement!

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After giving it some thought, I agree with your last sentence. Since I read, study, lurk 2+2, and track and think about hands that I'm not happy with (which does not always mean hands that I lost) I hope I'm disciplined enough not to grow worse!

However, my original concern was NOT that playing bad players would make me worse. Honestly, I try ONLY to play bad players. That's how I increase my bankroll. But bad players and free players are different. Bad players, when playing for $, are usually predictable in one way or another..or if not, they usually play long enough to make enough mistakes to compensate. At least at pokerstars, free money players are often all playing like Danny Nguyen on crack. They do anything because they can just hit reload. When I was freeplaying originally, I found myself doing the same thing. It's essentially meaningless...why not go for the big score?

So, really, it's the effect it could have on MY attitude that's the potential problem. I can't afford to carry ANY of that attitude over into real money games, even .50/1 ring game. That being said, I think I will go ahead and give it a try.

[AAquadsAA]

thats what i was getting at.(i just didnt get into detail) i can sit down and beat a $2/4 or $3/6 game all day long but i really am not going to improve my game. you can study and discuss what good players are doing till the cows come home, but there is no replacement for practice.(against good players). you still want a few bad thrown in for their money. if one of your "leaks" is bluffing effectively, then you dont want to try against bad players is all i was getting at. you cannot bluff bad players. bad players are easy to read sure, but an advanced bluff move will never work. someone who really understands the game will no this to be true.

[d10]

I say drop the boyfriend. Poker is more important. And then give me a call next time you go out to the casino.

But playing with bad players shouldn't hurt your game if you understand the theory behind everything you're doing. And that's what you should be working towards. When you're up against better players you'll know what plays work against them and which ones you'll need to avoid. But these days there's no reason to need to play against good players. There are more than enough fish out there who want to give you their money.

[AKQJ10]

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But playing with bad players shouldn't hurt your game if you understand the theory behind everything you're doing. And that's what you should be working towards. When you're up against better players you'll know what plays work against them and which ones you'll need to avoid. But these days there's no reason to need to play against good players. There are more than enough fish out there who want to give you their money.

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Bingo, I agree with everything said in this post (including the deleted portion about dropping the boyfriend and calling me). Also some preceding posts had it right -- if you can play for chips and treat the chips as money, then you'll be fine. If you start calling with draws you know are theoretically wrong -- "I'll just see the turn with these pocket deuces to see if I can make a set. It's only play money!" then you certainly WILL learn bad habits.

[d10]

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Bingo, I agree with everything said in this post (including the deleted portion about dropping the boyfriend and calling me).

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That was the main point of my post. I just threw that other crap in there to make it appear as if I had something useful to say.

[Dazarath]

I think people are misinterpreting the part of the original post about playing with bad players. We all try to find tables with terrible players, and all-the-while, we try to improve our game. But it's kind of hard to improve your play, when you're playing PP play money tournaments, and the first hand is 6 people all-in, resulting in half the table being wiped out right away.

Since you're posting on a forum filled with serious poker players, a lot of the responses you're going to receive are going to say "poker, poker, poker." I haven't seen anyone talk about the middle ground. What about just sticking to small stakes and playing as a side-hobby? Of course, work on your game; you want every hour spent at the table to be as much +EV as possible. But it's not necessary to take the path that a lot of people here take, which is to build a bankroll and gain experience to be able to move up limits and do it again.

I have a friend (who's actually the person who first taught me how to play), and he plays, reads, and wins some money on the side, but he hasn't moved up at all. It's nice to have a hobby that earns you a bit of change as well, but it's not like the only two options are quit or shoot for the 100/200 games.

A lot of people are going to look down upon poker players, and maybe your friend and boyfriend just don't like gambling in general. I can understand that. If you feel that taking the path of the fastest growth (poker-wise) will severely reduce the amount of time that you can spend with others, then don't do it.

Just my $0.02.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

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I play about twice a week at the riverboat casinos and often clear about $2-400 in profit playing 3/6.
Online, I play .50/1 and STTs and, while I've cashed out twice and tripled my original bankroll, I have no illusions about the fact that I am a barely mediocre poker player at this point.

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Realism about your skills is good. However, "often clearing $2-400 at 3-6" isn't very realistic. $400 is a very large win for 3-6, and even $200 is a sizeable win that shouldn't be counted on happening very often. A realistic figure should be based on a significant number of hours of play, and your hourly rate after playing that long. We're talking many hundreds of hours, even thousands. Read "Gambling theory and other topics" if you haven't already.

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My boyfriend really wishes I would go on a huge losing streak, and not be able to continue

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This is a recipe for disaster here. By the time you are talking about EV and reading 2+2, your pokering isn't going to disappear, therefore you need support, not ignorant bullpucky and flak. Time to get with the program buddy.

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I'm not wild about the idea of possibly giving up one of my $250+ evenings at the casino to go play somewhere that I win no money

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Again, a more realistic vision should be taken here. While you're not going to make any money playing for free, about the BEST you can hope to do in a live 3-6 game is $6 an hour (over the long run). You might be able to beat it for slightly more, but given your self-described assessment of your own skills, this seems very unlikely. You are more likely to be a break-even or 1/2 a big bet per hour player at this point, but you haven't realized it yet. Believe me, you aren't going to have $200+ wins all the time.

After playing approximately 30 hours a week for a year and a half back in 2000-2001, I was pushing about 1500 hours, and had managed a win rate as follows:

3-6 full kill - $7.12 per hour

4-8 full kill - $9.30 per hour

8-16 full kill - $15.00 per hour*

Keep in mind that I became a serious 2+2er back in 1997, which is when I first posted on 2+2. I was also a math tutor in college, thus I have a much better grasp of theoretical aspects of gambling, like hourly rate, SD, EV, risk of ruin etc. I also have spent an average of 25-30 hours a week (sometimes much more) in a cardroom for the last nine years. I have also been an avid home game player for the last 2 1/2 decades (I started playing for money when I was nine [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). Experience does count.

I tell you all this because from the tone of your post, it doesn't seem like you have a realistic handle on how much you can really beat the game of limit hold'em for.

As for your foray into the world of playing for points, realize that people will play much better poker when there's real money involved. However, there's something to be said for being able to adjust to different conditions. There's even more to be said for playing poker for FUN and not just money. I love home games where there's little money involved, mostly so I can play stupid, drink beer, and enjoy myself. My personal home games are $10 buy-in, and I play every hand. But I guarantee you that when I'm in a casino playing for bennies, I won't be playing like an idiot anymore. I have the experience to adjust to conditions, no matter what they might be. In time, so will you.

I just want to urge you to try and get a mathematically sound grasp on the reality of poker now, while you are early in your playing career, and before you develop bad habits or unrealistic expectations.

al

[MLerra]

Adapting to different tables is definitely a big part of poker, and I think playing for points (if the players are indeed different from most cash players) would help you learn this adapting skill. Not to mention, many poker skills are practice-able at all limits - things like patience, for example.

Lastly... and I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet, but... you said your friend would play with you at these points card games. Presumably you enjoy spending time with your friend... so even if playing for points is slightly -EV in the $ department (and again, I don't think this is true), isn't it +EV in other ways to start something else you and your friend could enjoy?