Big draw

ScottyP431 · #1 01-17-2005, 05:28 AM

Live 30-60. I am on my 2nd orbit. I have been run over by the deck in my first 10ish hands, getting aces and kings which i won at showdown, and AJ and AQ which i won without a showdown, playing all 4 hands aggressively the whole way through. I dont have any real definite reads on any of the players involved (never played with any of them before), but UTG and UTG +1 both have mountains of chips, whereas the button/sb have like 300 bucks a piece for what its worth.

I am in the Big blind, and am dealt the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG open raises, UTG+1 calls, as do 2 others in M/EP. The button attempts to raise but does not bring enough chips out, the SB has a seisure about this string bet and the floor is called, and its ruled the button can only call. SB calls and i call. 7 to the flop.

4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, i check deciding to raise if there is a bet and a few callers when it gets back to me. UTG bets, UTG+1 raises. 2 callers (mp1 and ep1), Button and SB muck. I think about the chic 3 bet from early position on a draw move that has recently come into fashion, almost to the point of being industry standard, on party, but decide to call. UTG calls.

Turn T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

i check, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP check, EP thinks and fires one out. This bet screams QJ to me. I call and now the rest fold.

I plan to lead the river on any club, K, or A, and go for a check raise if a non club 3 or 8 hits as they will seem less threatening

Flame away

does my passive play so far in the hand ruin my chance of bluff winning when an A or K hits? It only has to work like 1 in 14 times to be even money, i think it has to work that often

TStoneMBD · #2 01-17-2005, 05:37 AM

sounds good to me. i agree with the industry standard of 3betting the flop.

Mr. Amanti · #3 01-17-2005, 05:42 AM

i really don't like the flop call.

you said it yourself if there is a bet and a few callers then you were going to raise, and now there is a bet, a raise, and a few callers... I can't think of a better time to make it 3 to go with your draw

at the same time, given the action, 7 of your club outs might not be clean, but obviously the straight is good

but seriously 3 bet that [censored]

Phat Mack · #4 01-17-2005, 02:40 PM

I think about the chic 3 bet from early position on a draw move that has recently come into fashion, almost to the point of being industry standard, on party, but decide to call.

I'd raise here if I thought it would disguise my hand; but if, as you say, such a raise has become the industry standard, I like your call.

i check, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP check, EP thinks and fires one out. This bet screams QJ to me. I call and now the rest fold.

A raise here might be considered in order to drive out a better club draw, but I'm having trouble thinking of likely two-club hands that would fold, so the call seems correct. It became heads up in any case.

I plan to lead the river on any club, K, or A, and go for a check raise if a non club 3 or 8 hits as they will seem less threatening

Works for me.

TStoneMBD · #5 01-17-2005, 02:42 PM

i dont think it really matters if his hand is disguised or not. hes losing value from not 3betting the flop. besides, wouldnt he play a set this way if he didnt lead the flop?

astroglide · #6 01-17-2005, 02:54 PM

32c would call 4 bets on this flop

ScottyP431 · #7 01-17-2005, 05:40 PM

3 betting the flop:
this is one of i think the tougher decisions in the hand. I probably pussed out, but it seemed to me that with this many players the liklihood that there was another club draw out, which would almost have to be better than mine, seemed high. Assuming someone had like AK of clubs, am i still getting enough value to raise for a 6 out straight draw? it doesnt seem like i am.

My other thought was what if UTG 4 bet and some of the callers/UTG+1 got out. Seems unlikely but could be disasterous. Hands like maybe JJ or TT who are hopeful they could still be good may decide to toss it. I probably want these hands in there because if they hit a set with the club of their rank i could get quite a bit of action.

A flipside of this i guess is they could fill up and jack me. Also a raise could get out hands like AK setting up my river bluff to work.

PassiveCaller · #8 01-17-2005, 06:19 PM

a 3-bet here is good value... you have a lot of equity in this pot already.

Phat Mack · #9 01-17-2005, 06:41 PM

hes losing value from not 3betting the flop.

Probably so. I don't know what the cap is, but if they are calling 2 bets cold, they may call 2 or 3 more. This sounds like a really good 30-60.

besides, wouldnt he play a set this way if he didnt lead the flop?

Yes. But I imagine that if he misses 4th street and doesn't lead out, he sells out his draw. On the other hand, if he hits a straight on 4th he may make some bucks from a real set and/or a big draw.

I don't know where UTG and UTG+1 are: if they led the flop to test the waters, or if they have made hands. I like having them on my left--if I hit, they'll bet it for me. I don't want them to slow down or fold: if they do, my position goes from best to worst.

weevil · #10 01-17-2005, 06:53 PM

If your flush is no good, you have eight clean outs, not six. You're on the straight-flush draw remember? So you're getting about 2.2:1 (though I think you can give yourself a fair amount more for the flush, not that often you're going to run up against another one..), your pot odds on the flop are 22:2 if you call, 26:3 if you three bet, implied something like 30:5. or 6:1. Your pot equity on the flop is huge, well above the requisite 2, and you want to milk these flop callers while they're still around. You have to three bet for value.