I don't think we should extradite anyone to the USA...

[bobman0330]

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In summary I'm trying to say, okay so the US courts may feel that the death penalty is appropriate in this case to make victims feel justice is done, and I am arguing that we are sending him to you, and we also need to feel right about our part in this.

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I think this is a bit presumptuous, actually. If someone's being extradited to the US, it's because he committed a crime in the US or against Americans. Given that, I'm not sure where England, or any other country, has much business in dictating what punishment should be meted out. Granted, if the suspect was going to be tortured, or jailed without a trial, there's a problem with allowing your country to be party to such acts. Unless you feel that the death penalty is up to that level (which would be shocking, but I'd love to hear about it), I think it's one of those matters that should be left to the decision of the country requesting extradition. As another poster suggested, it wouldn't really be appropriate for an extraditing country to set limits on how much time a particular offense warrants or whether or not the prisoner will have cable TV in his cell.

[mackthefork]

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Granted, if the suspect was going to be tortured, or jailed without a trial, there's a problem with allowing your country to be party to such acts. Unless you feel that the death penalty is up to that level (which would be shocking, but I'd love to hear about it), I think it's one of those matters that should be left to the decision of the country requesting extradition.

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Well I disagree, because it is not clear cut that a person will be extradited just because it is requested, even if it is America making the request. As Arnfinn has said it used to be that we would get a guarantee before extraditing anyone, the law was changed in 2004 to facilitate the faster extradition of terrorist suspects, I don't think this is a good thing.

There are still quite a few countries in the world that have the death penalty, only really one that I expect better from, no I'm not a fan of it.

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As another poster suggested, it wouldn't really be appropriate for an extraditing country to set limits on how much time a particular offense warrants or whether or not the prisoner will have cable TV in his cell.

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This is dodging the issue, we're talking about releasing a man to possible execution by a foreign government, not the quality of cell facilities.

Mack

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

There are still quite a few countries in the world that have the death penalty, only really one that I expect better from, no I'm not a fan of it.


My two-mindedness on the dealth penaly is different. Philosophically, I resist ceding power to government, and the power to take a life is pretty serious. On the other hand, I believe in self defense and armed forces and sometimes you need to kill to defend yourself. Not the best option, but like war, something that must remain an option.

Do I think, say, people who murder children deserve to be put to death. I sure do, but I'd probably rather see them in the general prison poopulation with all involved knowing why they're there. Do I think people who will continue to kill even while incarcerated deserve to be put to death? Well, it sure guarantees that they won't kill again.

Are we more "civilized" when we say we'll never execute someone for heinous crime? Or are we just ignoring reality and making ourselves feel superior?

I can't answer that. Maybe a lot of Europe's attitutde is a "screw the US" attitutde. If that's it and it makes you (not you personally) happy, fine. I'm not 100% pleased with my country 100% of the time either. But please, if you won't extradite someone, think twice about freeing him.

You know, as a libertarian, I'd rather 1000 guilty go free than one innocent spend one day behind bars. I don't think we're perfect in preventing that, but we're no worse at it than you are. That's the part I focus on.

Once we're sure they're guilty, hey Karma is Karma.

[bobman0330]

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There are still quite a few countries in the world that have the death penalty, only really one that I expect better from, no I'm not a fan of it.

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i respect your position on the matter, and I personally believe that the death penalty in the US should be abolished. Nevertheless, assume some British citizen rapes and murders a bunch of girls in the US, then flees to Britain. We want to extradite and execute him, but the UK refuses. By refusing, isn't the UK imposing its own value judgments and policies on our sovereign right to punish and deter crime as we see fit? If so, why is this justified? If not, why is that not a fair way to put it?

[mackthefork]

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You know, as a libertarian, I'd rather 1000 guilty go free than one innocent spend one day behind bars. I don't think we're perfect in preventing that, but we're no worse at it than you are. That's the part I focus on.


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I agree with this sentiment.

Mack

[mackthefork]

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We want to extradite and execute him, but the UK refuses. By refusing, isn't the UK imposing its own value judgments and policies on our sovereign right to punish and deter crime as we see fit? If so, why is this justified?

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In a way I suppose yes, but if the US leans on us, then it is guilty of the same thing, 90%+ of the population would also be wanting to contribute to his plane ticket (one way of course), make no mistake. It still doesn't change my stance but these questions people are posing are uncomfortable/impossible to answer, which is why it's such a complex subject.

Three people have had posthumous pardons here since 1945, I know that is a long time but really what good is a pardon. Also these pardons are difficult to get, families have broken themselves trying to clear the names of dead men, 60 years gone, most of them get nowhere but still try.

We want justice for you, we are even happy for you to mete it out, but just not that last step is all.

Mack

[Bjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a bit presumptuous, actually. If someone's being extradited to the US, it's because he committed a crime in the US or against Americans. Given that, I'm not sure where England, or any other country, has much business in dictating what punishment should be meted out. Granted, if the suspect was going to be tortured, or jailed without a trial, there's a problem with allowing your country to be party to such acts. Unless you feel that the death penalty is up to that level (which would be shocking, but I'd love to hear about it), I think it's one of those matters that should be left to the decision of the country requesting extradition.

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Well a lot of europeans see the death penalty as a human rights violation and hence in breach of international laws and treaties. In that way it is in principle the same as torture or jail without trial etc in that it is beyond what civilized states are supposed to be engaged in.

That's the reason why a lot of european contries have laws forbidding extradition to countries with capital punishment unless guarantees that the death penalty will not be sought are given in advance.

/Bjorn

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Well a lot of europeans see the death penalty as a human rights violation

IMO, any punishment in a country where the rights of the accused are not protected should be seen the same way.

it is beyond what civilized states are supposed to be engaged in.


I disagree. The test of whether or not a country is "civilized" should be an overall evaluation of their judicial system.