Switching from $25 to $50 NL - Having a lot of trouble HELP

[aces_full]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just going to throw this out there. Neither do I endorse nor deny, I'm just reiterating.

There is a commonly-held belief in the limit games that the $1/$2 game (the 2nd level) is signifigantly harder than the lowest level at party, the .5/1 game. The 2/4 game is again, much softer than the 1/2 game.

AFAICT, the most common reasoning for this phenomenon is that developing good players transition quickly through .5/1 but get rut-stuck at 1/2 when they encounter the rersistance of many more developing good players.

Again, I'm not saying I believe this to be true, and I'm not saying its false. Just that this is an observation.

Discuss (or not).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have the math to support it, so this is a hand waving argument, but I beleive to an extent this is true. I think it is a misconception that the $50 NL games are just as easy as the $25's. My PT data and observation tell me otherwise. I beleive that at every successive level, there will be at least one less fish at the table and you will be more likely to run into good players and players who are working on their games. Also I think that as you go up even the fish get better. There is a difference between a guy with a 40% VP$IP and a 60% VP$IP. One of the biggest things I think though is that a tight low-stakes game is -EV for all but the best players because the rake is going to be a much higher percent of the pots, and since more small pots will be played, you will be losing more to the rake. I took two shots at $50NL and failed both times. However when I look at my PT results my gross win is less than the rake I paid, so if the games were not raked I would actually be slightly ahead.

Another observation I made about my own play is that at $25 NL and below the signal-to-noise ratio was very high. That is, my opponents were sooo horrible that the times I overplayed unimproved big pairs and got broke were grossly overshadowed by the goons who would call off their entire stack with middle pair against my flopped set. At NL50 I found that the average player was able to fold marginal hands, and when I had a good hand I won more small pots, but when my good hand got outdrawn, the big pots I lost, along with the rake and the blinds eroded away my profits. I also had to come to the realization that I had a tilt problem that was a big leak.

I moved back to $25 NL again, and although I falied twice at $50NL, and this may be just luck related results oriented thinking, but over my last 4K hands at Party $25NL 6-max I have been absolutely tearing up the tables for 18PTBB/100. I think I have learned from my experience. I came up with this idea that I call the reverse gap concept for bad players. In case you don't know, the gap concept states that you need a better hand to call a raise with than you would raise with yourself-hence the "gap". The inverse gap concept is this: A bad player will call with hands that are much worse than those that he will bet or raise you with. Basically, the average low stakes player isn't bluffing you. If you get C/R in a raised pot-it's almost always two pair or a set. They will call you to the river with TP/NK or 2nd pair, but they will not raise you with them. I think there three skills required for successful transition from the kiddie pool of $25NL and below to $50 and above: The ability to fold unimproved TP/TK and overpair to significant heat. Second, game selection. This is something I have largely overlooked in the past. To that end, don't play full ring. Even at $25NL the full ring games are rock gardens, and if my rake theory is correct, these games are -EV. The idiots gravitate to 6-max. I also stopped playing ring for the most part at Paradise,Stars, and UB and play almost exclusively at Party. I have never played against a worse caliber of player than at Party $25NL-they are truly awful. I look for table with deep stacks and big pots with a lot of players seeing the flop. Third, the ability to make cursory reads. For this I rely extensively on GT+. Get an understanding of what those stats mean about your opponents play. When you raise PF with AA and a player with a post flop aggression factor of .45 min check-raises you-he HAS a set, fold. But if the guy has an AF of 5 and you have seen him make big bluffs, then you can feel good about getting all your money in as fast as possible even if he does show you a set. This also ties into game selection. I keep an extensive buddy list, and the more PT hands I have and the more I watch them the more detailed notes I take on their play. The first thing I do when I log on to Party is check my buddy list. You want to play big pots against bad players and steal from the good and tight players. Only play big pots against them with the nuts. Don't try and steal from the calling stations.

I have also started to learn when to slow down. Sometimes calling stations have the right idea. I think that in many situations it is simply better to call rather than raise in a pot where you are either way ahead or way behind. NL is very situational, and you need to be looking for a reason to fold. Don't play big pots unless you know where you stand. Folding unimproved AA is okay even if you did get bluffed, if you are patient you will find a spot to break them-you simply must make less mistakes than your opponents.

[resetdave]

Thank you guys for the responses. I am a student of the game and as you guys can see, have much to learn.
Especially aces_full for those very insightful posts.

I have played some more 50NL, and am evening out. I notice players will cold call with bad bad hands liks K3s, Q2s, just very bad play. People seem to catch all kinds of crap against me.

I will take your advice to heart. I do overplay my TP/TK and overpairs. And I see that now.

Here's a situation I face a lot:

2-3 limpers, I raise to 4xBB with AK. I get 3-5 callers. Now, going to the flop pot is $10. Flop comes Axx or Kxx.

1)If there are 2 same suit, pot it?
2)If they are just unconnecting unsuited rags, what do I bet? 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot?

On the turn:
1) Still no possible flush, now pot is $30. I probably have about $30 left. What do I do? Shove or check giving him the free card?
2)So I get called after betting 3/4 pot, rougly $25 in pot. I have about $35 left. How much do I lead out for? If I bet the pot, and get raised/CR, I have no choice but to call. If I bet something like $5, it's too weak. I guess if I bet $10, I can lay down the hand. Is that what I'm faced with? Losing 1/2 a buy-in in one hand.

River
1) Now, it's a possible flush on board, with someone just calling all the way down. Do I just check/fold, leaving me with about $10-$20 left if I correctly gave him bad pot odds?
What happens if there is no possible flush? He must have called me all the way down with something?
2) What do I do now? He's called passively all the way to the river with me betting 1/2 to 3/4 pot on every street.



I ended the night on the positive side in 50NL tonight.

[GrunchCan]

Nice post.

Let me add just one thought. Even if it is true that the 2nd lowest game is full of students who are better than the players in the next higher level, its important to be able to beat this game. If you keep taking shots & failing, then I think you need to keep taking shots until you beat it.

[Skuzzy]

with 2-3 limpers and a hand that makes top pair top kicker you need to raise more - 4BB plus 1BB for each limper. You have to reduce the field.

If you raise and get called in 4-5 spots top pair sucks on a coordinated board, even a rainbow board with middling cards and a King suck cause limpers who call raises are often playing middle pairs for set value. This is why, with deep stacks, the hands that make top pair go down in value and the SC and small pairs go up.

How do you play it? Cheaply seems right. Anything you do can go bad, a 1/2 pot bet and one caller behind gives everyone else the odds to call with a str8 or flush draw.
With position I might bet the pot if its checked round but I wouldn't expect to take down a 4-5 way pot with a steal raise so the same raise with TPTK is just as unlikely to take it down.


NB: I suck at NL. I post only because my idiot responses might generate some discussion that helps me too.

[Morrek]

nice post aces_full, I think you nailed some of my leaks aswell. I don't have PT yet though, is it really that important?

Regarding the multiway pot with AK I would probably bet a little more than the pot if I'm late position (I try not to raise AK preflop in the blinds or utg, I also play 6max btw)and checked to. Then slow down if you just get stonecalled, how much depends on turn and river.