Simon Trumper's reply on ESPN

[TheMainEvent]

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If he took more then 3 or 4 minutes then i agree that would be excessive but 2-3 minutes is fine and BG is just bitter that he got outplayed on this hand

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Do you even realize how long 3 minutes is? Try staring at your watch for 3 minutes.

[Robfish]

how long is 3 minutes? errrrrr tough one!! Is it 180 seconds???

As i said tell me how he should play the hand on the river to get more chips???

[gumpzilla]

I think it's a huge leap to go from this play to claiming that chip leaders will stall with every decision. If people were going to do that, why aren't they doing it already? A question I posed to Paul P. elsewhere: if you try to steal the blinds with garbage, do you instamuck if you get repopped, or do you take a few seconds? I hope it's not the latter, otherwise the guardians of the unwritten code are going to ride off on your woman and rape your horse. Also, don't you think there's a pretty substantial difference between stalling for stalling's sake and taking time on a particular hand to extract extra chips on that hand?

You also didn't answer my question. Somebody making a tough decision costs you according to your insightful "time is $" formula. How does somebody doing this with the nuts hinder your ability to play more than somebody doing it with a real decision?

[BadVoodooX]

Dipshit, the only reason they aren't doing is common courtesy, the thing that Trumper chucks over the side with this play. There isn't a single rule beyond the option of calling a clock preventing a chip leader from stalling on every action he has to shorten the # of hands per level. Someone who does it excessively with even farily regular decision is costing money as is some prima donna like Helmuth playing for TV time, it's accepted that once in a while someone will face a truly difficult decision and are allowed time as a courtesy among players, most online poker sites work just fine with a fixed time allotment.

By your genius assertion of whatever makes me $ is good regardless of negative impact on other players, collusion is just fine too.

[gumpzilla]

You're not answering the more substantive questions I posed, just ranting, at this point. I'll pose the two that I'm particularly interested in one last time.

1) When you try to steal preflop with garbage and get raised, are you throwing your cards away instantly, or do you take a moment so that it looks like you're thinking?

2) How is somebody doing this costing you in a way that them actually making a difficult decision isn't?

Here's another one for you.

3) People who plays lots of hands are going to, on average, slow down the game substantially. Thus they are costing everybody money. Should we not allow people to play many hands?

Also:

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By your genius assertion of whatever makes me $ is good regardless of negative impact on other players, collusion is just fine too.

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I'm not asserting anything like that. Why are your panties in such a bunch? Are you having a hard time making a case like a reasonable person?

[BadVoodooX]

You are the one who isn't addressing issues. You haven't addressed the chip leader stalling issue at all which is highly, highly relevant. You haven't addressed people playing for media time, which is becoming more common. You haven't addressed the negative impact to the other players at the table. You haven't addressed what the game is like if everyone plays time games like this or the consquences of people calling clock regularly to prevent it. If it's ok for people to try to manipulate the time rules for their own advantage all of the above strategies are just as strategically viable as what Trumper did. The only generally accepted exception to deciding your action in a timely fashion was facing a difficult decision but once you open the door to what Trumper did, you can't say the other ways of getting trying to gain advantage are not any different.

The time of all the other players being wasted is why the cell phone rule was implemented, codification of time management of the table was necessary because some players were wasting other players time, this is more of the same crap.

Anyone who regularly takes up more than is necessary is negatively impacting the other players at the table, not just your opponent. Pretending to have a difficult decision when you don't is doing exactly that. A highly aggressive blind stealer who excessively drags out the drama when he's caught raising with 9-6 offsuit when a Dan Harrington type comes over the top is doing exactly the same thing, 5-15 seconds, the regularly accepted time to make a decision isn't the same as taking 2 minutes but you're trying to compare them when there is nothing in common.

People playing lots of hands has no relevance whatsoever, it's only relevant if they waste time during the hand.

[gumpzilla]

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You haven't addressed the chip leader stalling issue at all which is highly, highly relevant. You haven't addressed people playing for media time, which is becoming more common.

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What I think - and what I'm pretty sure I've said - is that certain kinds of stalling are substantially different from other kinds. I don't see a short stack stalling in a tournament where they don't move to hand-for-hand in order to get past the bubble being in the same ballpark as Trumper's move. I think they are wildly different. You don't seem to think so, but I can't understand your reasons why.

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Pretending to have a difficult decision when you don't is doing exactly that. A highly aggressive blind stealer who excessively drags out the drama when he's caught raising with 9-6 offsuit when a Dan Harrington type comes over the top is doing exactly the same thing, 5-15 seconds, the regularly accepted time to make a decision isn't the same as taking 2 minutes but you're trying to compare them when there is nothing in common.

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Define excessively. This is my whole point. They are EXACTLY the same thing and differ only in degree.

[TheMainEvent]

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Define excessively. This is my whole point. They are EXACTLY the same thing and differ only in degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's ridiculous. That's like saying stopping in the road to drop off a passenger is exactly the same thing as parking my car in the middle of a busy highway, they only differ in degree. The degree is the most important part.

[gumpzilla]

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That's ridiculous. That's like saying stopping in the road to drop off a passenger is exactly the same thing as parking my car in the middle of a busy highway, they only differ in degree. The degree is the most important part.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, it is the most important part. What I'm trying to get from people who are talking about how horrible Trumper's move was is a sense of how long they think is acceptable.

[BadVoodooX]

You're right, everyone should take 2 minutes before folding the 9-6 offsuit to convince the rest of the table they really had something. No one will catch on to the fact they do this every 10 hands, it'll make the game so much better. And tournament poker is improved by the short stack stalling, that's such a novel strategy that works so often, it really improves the game when tourneys have to go hand for hand for 45 minutes.