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#31
11-09-2004, 01:03 PM
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Re: Flopped 2 pair but don\'t know what to do with it
[ QUOTE ]
Check-calling the flop and check-folding the turn when you flop 2 pair is bad. Can we all agree on that? Part of the value in betting the flop is that it makes the rest of the hand less of a guessing game. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I agree. But the point at which I would deviate from check-call, check-fold is at the first check. As you say, betting the flop makes the hand less of a guessing game. Having checked, however, I think the play is less clear. 
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#32
11-09-2004, 01:03 PM
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Re: Flopped 2 pair but don\'t know what to do with it
[ QUOTE ]
By betting, what better hand are you going to make fold? [/ QUOTE ] Worse hands will call (T's, pairs, high/medium hearts). It's not always about getting better hands to fold, which is why you need to bet the flop too.
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#34
11-09-2004, 01:09 PM
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Re: Flopped 2 pair but don\'t know what to do with it
I misread the board as having a 4 straight (consecutive) in which case the lower end of the 1 card straight might fold, but probably not. Either way, that was a small part of why betting is correct.
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#35
11-09-2004, 01:31 PM
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Re: Flopped 2 pair but don\'t know what to do with it
Sent, this is a pretty loose preflop call in a 1/3 structure. Bet the flop and 3-bet if possible. It's really hard to know what to do on the turn without betting the flop.
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#36
11-09-2004, 01:42 PM
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Re: Flopped 2 pair but don\'t know what to do with it
Let's make a couple assumptions. I'm going to present an extreme example. Assume the whole table limps and you limp on the button with 99. SB raises, all call. The flop comes J99. SB bets, all 8 call. Your action. I think that the potential for a turn raise cannot be ignored despite the fact that you have nearly 100% equity. At limits where people fold the turn for a bet, this play has less value. At 3/6 I think this is a fine play. This does go against SSH.
Back to the example at hand, top two on a highly co-ordinated board, with 2 flush. This is not a strong hand. You can't wait till the turn to raise this. I definitely lead the flop. If I check, you are presented with a nice check-raise opportunity. Force people out, charge the draws the max. If I failed to check-raise the flop, the turn card is terrible. There is nothing wrong with calling down from this point, assuming it's never 2-bets to you. I will call EP bets from LP with a good hand if I think there is a good chance to trap people for BBs. If the worst possible turn card falls, I see nothing wrong with calling down instead. Example. As8s in BB. 3 limpers, sb completes. Flop come A87, two hearts. SB leads, all call to me. I'll wait until the turn to raise to trap. If the 9h comes on the turn, calling down becomes my plan instead. Just some thought.
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#37
11-09-2004, 01:55 PM
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Re: Flopped 2 pair but don\'t know what to do with it
[ QUOTE ]
Again, I am mostly wondering out loud here. This might not be a good place to wait for these reasons, but if not, I want to identify exactly why. I think the answer lies in the ability to fold to a scare card. [/ QUOTE ] I think the reason why waiting until the turn is bad is because of Hero's position in this hand. If I remember the example correctly from SSH, which I may not since its from memory, we had TT with a possible flush draw out there. In this case, there were a lot of card to come that could beat us (over cards, flush cards, etc...). However, in this example someone was betting (I think directly to our right), therefore a bet was certainly going to go in on the flop. Now, since we knew where the bet was comming from, there was a good probability that on the turn we could face the field with two cold assuming the flop better continued firing away and nothing too scary hit. Therefore we could really push our increase in equity edge on the turn. In this hand, on the flop we have no idea where a bet is comming from. We need to make sure something goes in on the flop and it doesn't get checked through giving drawers infinite odds. The only real good thing that could happen is that if we check, we get a late position bet and hope the same player bets on the turn so we can c/r him to face the field with two cold. The ambiguity here is why I think its wrong to wait until the turn in this situation and also why I think its better to bet out on the flop. Anyone disagree with anything I've said?
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