$33 - blind v blind 2nd hand

[schwza]

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I like the whole hand. Nice job.

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thanks. the turn card made it a lot easier [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

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I like calling for information here. This looks like a WAWB spot, so getting to showdown as cheaply as possible looks good to me. If he makes another good sized bet on the turn, then you can re-evaluate.

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I did not know you get information when you call!?!?



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Villain raised preflop. He will almost certainly bet any flop. Calling the flop is a good way to see if he really likes his hand and it's a cheap way. If he bets the turn again then we can re-evaluate. That's all I meant by calling for information.

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ok, so reevaluate... assume he bets turn t150 or so... now what's your line?

[Raiser]

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I like calling for information here. This looks like a WAWB spot, so getting to showdown as cheaply as possible looks good to me. If he makes another good sized bet on the turn, then you can re-evaluate.

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I did not know you get information when you call!?!?



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Villain raised preflop. He will almost certainly bet any flop. Calling the flop is a good way to see if he really likes his hand and it's a cheap way. If he bets the turn again then we can re-evaluate. That's all I meant by calling for information.

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ok, so reevaluate... assume he bets turn t150 or so... now what's your line?

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On this turn? Push.
On any other turn with a diamond? Push.
On a turn with an A? Push.
On any other turn where I completely whiffed? I'd probably fold this early in the tournament. That's probably too weak, but top pair T kicker isn't so great that I'm willing to go to the felt with it.

I really think calling the flop and seeing the turn is just as good as raising, from an information gathering perspective. But it's much cheaper and much safer. Say he pushes over the top of your flop raise. So now there is ~1050 in the pot and you have to call ~450. That's a tough decision. If you just call and he comes out strong again on the turn, you've gained the same amount of information as raising the flop would get you, but it comes much cheaper.

Is this faulty thinking? I'm willing to be persuaded.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

calling is safe and cheap, I agree. But many people c-bet flop-river unimproved... so I am not sure that you're getting any valuable info by checking flop. It is not necessarily cheap if you keep calling. If you push turn (not this turn)... and he calls you're most likely beat... I don't know. Regardless, turn was nice to OP.

[Raiser]

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calling is safe and cheap, I agree. But many people c-bet flop-river unimproved... so I am not sure that you're getting any valuable info by checking flop. It is not necessarily cheap if you keep calling. If you push turn (not this turn)... and he calls you're most likely beat... I don't know. Regardless, turn was nice to OP.

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I'll take safe and cheap this early on and save my chip-chucking for later on. Maybe this is just a matter of style [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ilya]

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This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

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I think it's cheaper to let SB define your hand by calling and seeing how he reacts to the turn. He's probably not gonna make another big bet if he has something like TT. If he is weak on the turn I think you can be pretty sure you're good. Then you can either take it down or check behind and make some money when he calls you on the river.

[schwza]

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This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

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I think it's cheaper to let SB define your hand by calling and seeing how he reacts to the turn. He's probably not gonna make another big bet if he has something like TT. If he is weak on the turn I think you can be pretty sure you're good. Then you can either take it down or check behind and make some money when he calls you on the river.

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so do you fold if villain makes a normal bet?

[Slim Pickens]

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SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t650 (All-In)</font>,


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I normally make a value bet in the 150 range, which seems to get insta-called regularly. In lieu of this, I always wonder had I pushed (apparent steal attempt) would I get called just the same and I'm missing out on more chips.

I love when the turn hits me like that. Makes all your decisions much easier.

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See Lorinda's post. She has a nice post about pushing the river and getting called.

Lorinda's post

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I've had little luck pushing and getting called in these sorts of situations. Donks love to call, but they won't call if they know they should fold and you give them an excuse to fold. I really think the proper river bet is the maximum that still makes it look to your opponent as though he's not effectively calling for all his chips. His range must get wider, and I think it gets wide enough that the extra number of hands that call here for 350 (leaving him 160) are worth the slight drop in the value when the bet is called. Also, most of the hands that are calling a push here will raise those last 160 anyway.

[downtown]

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I've had little luck pushing and getting called in these sorts of situations. Donks love to call, but they won't call if they know they should fold and you give them an excuse to fold. I really think the proper river bet is the maximum that still makes it look to your opponent as though he's not effectively calling for all his chips. His range must get wider, and I think it gets wide enough that the extra number of hands that call here for 350 (leaving him 160) are worth the slight drop in the value when the bet is called. Also, most of the hands that are calling a push here will raise those last 160 anyway.

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I also feel like I don't get called enough with the push in this spot, and though I won't quote it too often, in HOH (or HOH2???) Harrington opines that 1/2 of your opponents remaining chips represents a psychological barrier. I think this would tend to apply in this situation, and it's a reason I like a value bet of &lt;1/2 pot if you're not going to push.

[Slim Pickens]

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I also feel like I don't get called enough with the push in this spot, and though I won't quote it too often, in HOH (or HOH2???) Harrington opines that 1/2 of your opponents remaining chips represents a psychological barrier. I think this would tend to apply in this situation, and it's a reason I like a value bet of &lt;1/2 pot if you're not going to push.

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That psychological barrier has got to be different for online SnG's. Your opponents don't have physical chips, just buttons on the screen with numbers on them. I took some time to study this exact type of situation: where I'm probably ahead and I think my opponent will call with a lot of lesser hands. It turned out I was underestimating the amount my opponents would call on the river by quite a bit. 150 is too little for a value bet. I'd rather push than bet 150, but 350 is even better.