Poker Pros - Do they really make it?

I think we need to make a clear distinction between 50K as a poker pro and 50K as, say, a Police Officer. The latter in most cases has health benefits, sick pay, vacation pay, a pension plan and a disability plan. While the cop isn't "living large," his livelihood is certainly more stable than the 50K a year poker player.

So, can I get a job?

[mshalen]

I have been thinking about some of the previous posts and my comments and wanted to take this opportunity to respond to being called elitest and not in touch with "common people". For anyone who cares here is a brief synopsis of my background.

I grew up in a middle class family where both my parents had to work to support the family. I graduated from high school with a class rank at about the 80th percentile - so not a top notch student but slightly above average. Through the generocity of my parents and grandparents I was able to attend a large midwestern public college (Indiana Univ). While I was at IU I started my first company which provided me with walking around money.

After college I got a job, saved my money and then started my own business. Within a year I was bankrupt (oh well **** happens). So I picked my butt up off the floor and went back out and got a job. I worked and saved for a few years and then went back to school and got my MBA.

After MBA school I went to work, got married and had two wonderful kids. I have since opened my own company (third time is a charm) and have become successful. My typical day begins at 5 AM and I drop my wife off at the 6:30 train she takes to her job. I get the kids up and drop them at school on my way to the office. At the end of the day I pick my wife up at about 6:45 and we then eat dinner as a family.

To answer the comments about "common people", elite attitude and spending habits. While our family income and assets probably place us in the top 5% of american families I do not sit around all day clipping coupons and have worked hard for everything that I have. Sure when I was bankrupt I could have sat around all day moaning about my condition and complaining about "rich people" but that episode of my life just forced me to examine my situation and work three times harder next time. I know a large number of sucessfull people and not one of them earned what they have by working at a 9-5 job. Everyone of them worked 70 or 80 hours a week.

Next time I will take more time and review my comments before I hit the "post" button. And perhaps others will too. Maybe the next time you want to use phrases like "elitest" and "you rich people" you will think about this post.

To butcher Winston Churchill: If you are 20 and not a liberal then you have no heart, if you are 40 and not a consevative then you have no brain.

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It is $15,000 per kid per year. The public school spends approx. $11,000 per year to educate each child and I feel that by spending the extra money my children recieve a superior education. But how much I choose to spend on my children's education is not my point. I was only attempting to indicate that the costs of living and raising a family can be significantly higher than you would think.

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You are in no place to comment on how the average person that makes $30-50,000 / year is able to live. Nevermind that you live in an area that costs a lot more to live in than the average place in the US, but you choose to spend $30,000 / year on an ELEMENTARY school education. There is no way you can convince me that their private school is $15,000/child/year better than a public school. The environment that they are in may even be detrimental to them if they end up with an average job.

What if Alex Rodriguez told you that your salary was nothing and that there is no way you can live on that. His evidence: his car (a luxury, like your children's education) costs your entire salary. Wouldn't you think that his claim is rediculous?

[MelchyBeau]

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For a while I have been thinking about poker professionals - those who choose to spend their life playing poker for a living. Having seen the industry and the way poker operates, I have begun to think that the number of people who actually make money off playing poker is actually very small.


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I think someone posted in the zoo that a certain online site has approx 6-7% of its players are winners.

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This is enhanced by the fact that many of the top professionals cannot stop themselves from constantly gambling their winnings (I'd recommend One of A Kind about Stu Ungar as a great way to get an insight into this mentality). Sure, someone may have a good year here and there, but how many professionals make enough money every single year to live comfortably? My guess is that it is not a very high number.

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I believe this has changed a bit. Malmuth stated in one of his essays that many of the new 'pros' are not as big of gamblers as The old school players. They tend to be introverted and mainly mathematical players, whereas the older players played by feel. Though there are still gamblers out there that are pro poker players, I believe that the amount of pros that gamble away thier winnings is lower now.



As for the 30-50k debate. 50k when you are young is a great salary to start at. even if you didn't have benifits. Think about how much a teacher makes, or many college graduates fresh out of college.

Melch

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I put a lot of thought into my post, I just didn't explain it all. I thought that any rational person would see that spending that much money on school was excessive and elitist. The same kind of elitism that can't comprehend anyone living on $50K.

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You are missing the point. It is not "irrational" to spend that amount of money on education if you value education that much. You are basically saying that since you individually do not think it should be spent that way, that it is a waste of money. It's the old "You disagree with me, so you are wrong" argument. If someone was making $30,000 a year and spending that amount on education, maybe you could say they are making a mistake. But if they have the means to do it, and they want to, they should have every right to do it. Education is going to get you somewhere in life.

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This is equally lacking in common sense, and shows the same illogical attitude that parents can buy happiness, success, etc., for their children. The difference in "quality of education" between, say, an Ivy League school and a major state university, is vastly over-rated, particularly at the undergrad level. A good student can get a great education at either. The whole life experience of college is also important, and a student will learn a lot more about the real world and about life (like that people live on $50k) at a non-elite school. College students should also make a significant effort toward financing their own education. That is educational too.


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I can assure you this is not true. While I did not go to an Ivy League undergraduate college, I did go to a very prestigious school, and it has made a huge difference in my life. Also, I assure you that I did not get into the college because of connections or anything like that. My parents are both teachers, and I did not go to elitist elementary schools or high schools. I worked hard, and had the opportunity to go there.

As a result of my education there, I have received great opportunities, that I definitely would not have received elsewhere. I am not saying that state schools are bad, or that you cannot receive a great education there. The University of Virginia and University of Michigan (Ann Arbor) are among the best in the country.

That said, it is ridiculous to say that going to an elite university is a waste of money. For one, I am guessing that you did not go to such an institution, so how do you know? Simply based on cost? It is pretty ridiculous that you are going to tell me that my parents made a mistake in footing the bill for my education. You do not know my circumstances, my goals, and the experiences and opportunities I have had.

As someone said, a large degree of what you are paying for is not only the education, but also the opportunies and doors that are opened in going there. Also, for those interested in going to graduate schools, your chances of getting into them are higher coming from an Ivy League undergraduate school (or a similar pretigious school), than from a state university. I am not saying this to be elitist - it is true, and can be shown through graduate school admissions statistics.

As far as the other issue, I've admitted that $50,000 can be a good living, depending on where you live and your circumstances. If you are in your twenties and living at home or cheaply, then you are definitely doing well for yourself.

But, as stated earlier, it really depends on your circumstances. I live in New York, and the cost of living here is high. Quite frankly, $30,000 is not a lot to live on here. That's why a much higher percentage of 20-30 year olds live at home after college or high school, compared to other areas like the Midwest and South, where rents and real estate are so much cheaper.

I am very thankful for everything I have. I am thankful that I had the opportunity to receive a great education, and that I have great parents who sacrificed a lot for my education. Someday, I hope to be able to provide for my own children in the same way.

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For one, I am guessing that you did not go to such an institution, so how do you know?


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More elitist snobbery. And on what did you base your incorrect guess? I don't share your views, so I must be trailer trash who didn't go to a proper school?

I speak from personal experience. I even went to private elementary school and to an elite prep school, which are even more absurd than spending beyond your family means for a name college. I got a good education, but I wish my parents had not made the sacrifice. They could have better used the money for themselves, and my perceptions of reality were greatly flawed from my sheltered life in proper schools. My academic education was first rate. My world education was sadly lacking.

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You do not know my circumstances, my goals, and the experiences and opportunities I have had.

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That didn't stop you from making assumptions about me. And I don't have to know anything about you to know that parents making big sacrifices for over-priced, name-school education is nonsense, both for the parents and for the child.

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You are basically saying that since you individually do not think it should be spent that way, that it is a waste of money. It's the old "You disagree with me, so you are wrong" argument.

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I am not making a value judgement. I am saying that I have had enough personal experience, and observed enough of others, to state that high-priced education is a waste for anyone who must make significant sacrifices to pay for it. I state that as an empirical observation, based on my training as an economist, not as an emotional observation based on any touchy-feely vibes.

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$30-50 a good living. This has to be a joke right? I don't know where you live but I spend $30,000 just on elementary school tuition for my two kids.

I get so frustrated when I see dollar amounts talked about in these forums. Most of these post are from people who have no idea. This isn't a slam at the poster just general frustration that comes out every once in a while.

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Please...$50,000 is a step up for me. I teach high school. Yep, I chose it, but $50,000 is not what I make. Playing a game for $50,000...I'd take that. It's not gonig to happen in the near future, but just for awareness sake, my wife and I made that amount (we make more now...I still have the same wage, but my wife makes more...good for me).

We did just fine. We had a house in Florida had two cars and paid all of our bills on time. $50,000 is enough if you choose your lifestyle wisely. I will submit that it does depend on a large degree just WHERE you live.

My frustrations come from statements that if people aren't making 100K they should look for another job. I guess I should take my cardboard box and put it underneath one of our highways because 50k isn't enough.

I wonder how people become broke when they win one million or more - that's the sick part for me. If anyone out there has that kind of money and they are thinking on blowing it on drugs or the crap table, send me a message. Just give me the money...I'll take good care of it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MicroBob]

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I think we need to make a clear distinction between 50K as a poker pro and 50K as, say, a Police Officer. The latter in most cases has health benefits, sick pay, vacation pay, a pension plan and a disability plan. While the cop isn't "living large," his livelihood is certainly more stable than the 50K a year poker player.

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While the poker-player gets to work whenever the hell they want and has virtually total freedom and flexibility.
While the policeman (or many other occupations) are spending money and time making the commute back and forth from work to home, don't get to take their job with them on a quick vacation if they like, and may have a prick for a boss.

I'm in a monster downswing right now so I'm roughly at the peak of what most would consider the most negative aspect of playing poker full-time for income...and I still think this is so much less stressful than many other 'real' jobs that it's not even close.

One can also consider that the $50k/yr poker-player, while not AS stable currently, has a lot of potential to become a $100k or $150k per year poker-player in the future if they continue to work at it and improve there game.
The police-officer likely has a decent pension that they working towards in the long-run...but they certainly aren't terribly likely to get a promotion where their $50k salary will suddenly become $100k simply because they are continuing to get better and better at their job.



Poker playing isn't for everyone.
Dr. Al makes some valid points. But they don't apply equally to all situations.
The dangers are more a product of self-discipline. Yes, you are sitting around a lot. So it's up TO YOU to make sure that your social-life and physical well-being don't suffer.
Have friends and join a health-club or something.


I get to spend more time with my GF and get to play in 2 different recreational soccer leagues. I won't get to do either in almost any other job.
Nor would I get the chance to win a trip to the WSOP (which I did) or other major events/vacations.


Even when I'm losing it doesn't feel THAT much like work.



My biggest issue with poker is that I don't feel lik eI'm contributing ANYTHING productive. I'm just sitting at home playing a game I kind of like and trying to make money.


Conversing with a friend of mine from college days and he's doing a lot with his career and is really making a difference. I tell him that I'm kind of jealous of him for that reason.
But he's over-worked and he's tired all the freaking time.
Lots of people with 'regular' job put in way more than 40 hours per week.
He tells me that he's probably more jealous of me because I can just get on a computer and 'make money' (although he knows it isn't exactly that easy).

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More elitist snobbery. And on what did you base your incorrect guess? I don't share your views, so I must be trailer trash who didn't go to a proper school...My academic education was first rate. My world education was sadly lacking.

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I acknowledge that the way I stated that could sound elitist, and I apologize for that. However, the content of what I said rings true. I never said you were trailer trash. I never said anything of the sort, and you are making quite a few leaps in logic to get to that point. In fact, I commented with respect about the very institutions you say are the best deal - state run universities.

I am sorry your world education was lacking, but it would be ridiculous to say that anybody who goes to an expensive/prestigious school lacks the same education.

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That didn't stop you from making assumptions about me. And I don't have to know anything about you to know that parents making big sacrifices for over-priced, name-school education is nonsense, both for the parents and for the child.

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I think that everyone should get a good education, regardless of where they go to school. Contrary to your assumption, I don't think that the Ivy League is all there is to getting an education. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Neither of my parents went to "elitist" schools, and nobody in my immediate family beyond my parents even went to college. I don't appreciate your attempts to cast me as some rich elitist who is out of touch with reality. It is certainly nothing of the sort.

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I am not making a value judgement. I am saying that I have had enough personal experience, and observed enough of others, to state that high-priced education is a waste for anyone who must make significant sacrifices to pay for it. I state that as an empirical observation, based on my training as an economist, not as an emotional observation based on any touchy-feely vibes.

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What you are doing is stating your opinion, and I respect that. After all, that's what these forums are intended to be. However, to say that your statements are "empirical observations" that somehow carry the weight of science is highly debatable. I have no doubt that in your experience, you have seen things that have lead you to form the opinions that you have expressed here.

However, given the broad generalization that you made (quoted above), you really are making a value judgment. You are saying that it is not worth it to make that sacrifice for a daughter or son to go to a well known university. Perhaps in your opinion, it is a waste. However, for you to imply that it is a waste for the legions of parents who have sacrificed wordly pleasures for their children's education, is belittling the choices and decisions that many people are forced into making throughout their life.

What I am saying would equally apply to a parent who struggles to put their child through a state school. Tuition at state schools may be lower, but for some families, spending any amount of money on tuition can be extremely taxing on the budget. Spending money on education is never a waste, because it is the one thing that you will always have for a lifetime.