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  #11  
Old 06-22-2004, 02:06 PM
Avatar Avatar is offline
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Default Re: Too aggressive with my underpair or SOP?

Chesspain I think your post-play here is interesting, in particular the turn. This type of aggressiveness I have not been able to fully incorporate into my game yet.
What are you trying to accomplish by c/ring the turn. Is it value betting or are you trying to scare a jack out of the picture?
In the long-run do you feel your hand will be good enough times to show a profit with that one overcard on the board with three other players seeing the flop?
Do you change your play at all if that one over card is an ace or king?
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  #12  
Old 06-22-2004, 03:19 PM
Nate tha' Great Nate tha' Great is offline
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Default Re: Too aggressive with my underpair or SOP?

Usually I'd 3-bet the flop in this spot and then lead the turn - a tough but aggressive player is often making this raise on the flop to get a free card, and you've played it in such a way that would allow him to do that.

The river play is CLEARLY to bet, unless you are up against a player against whom you would not feel safe folding to a raise - there only needs to be a SMALL chance of his folding a better hand in order to make betting correct, especially since I don't think too many players are going to bite on this blufffing opportunity.
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  #13  
Old 06-22-2004, 03:41 PM
Festus22 Festus22 is offline
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Default Re: Too aggressive with my underpair or SOP?

I agree with Nate 100%. The flop bet looks like a vulnerable hand wanting the button to raise out the other opponents. A flush draw would want to C/R a likely button bet to try to trap any callers.

The turn check offered a free card on a silver platter. The button made a mistake by not accepting what his flop raise paid for. So unless you had a good read that the button was overly aggressive, 3-bet the flop and lead the turn or at the very least, call the flop and then lead out.
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  #14  
Old 06-22-2004, 03:42 PM
Trix Trix is offline
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Default Re: Too aggressive with my underpair or SOP?

IŽll often raise preflop here.

Postflop is either this or 3betting the flop and leading the turn.

It depends how likely your opponent is to bet the turn with overcards.
I think it was fine here. Since the board is twotone and you limped preflop, you will often be put on a flushdraw in this spot, meaning that he will often bet the turn for a free showdown.

If the board had been rainbow I would tend to 3bet the flop more often as overcards often will lay down on the turn as the odds are close and they might fear reverse domination.

1. Fine if CO and Button coldcalls alot with broadway stuff.

2. It depends. When the heart falls, he wont call you with A-high that often anymore. If he is a weak player who will fear a river check-raise from a completed flush and therefore will check a better hand behind, but wouldnŽt have called with A-high, then you must check.

He will have to be a big clown to bluff at this after the heart hits. He might give it a shot with KQ though.

There is also a chance that he just made the flush, meaning that you must call a raise.

I think you would have had a pretty clear bet if not for the heart, so I guess it depends how loose/weak this player is.

Your bet might also fold 99/TT sometimes.

I think I would check-call here though.
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  #15  
Old 06-22-2004, 04:04 PM
Aces McGee Aces McGee is offline
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Default Re: Too aggressive with my underpair or SOP?

Nate

On the river, what hands is the opponent going to call with?

-McGee
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  #16  
Old 06-22-2004, 04:11 PM
Nate tha' Great Nate tha' Great is offline
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Default Re: Too aggressive with my underpair or SOP?

[ QUOTE ]
Nate

On the river, what hands is the opponent going to call with?

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll find opponents calling with an unimproved AK, AQ here more often than you'd think, especially since the turn check-raise can but certain players into a sort of mini-tilt. But the key reason for betting is the chance to fold out a better hand.
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  #17  
Old 06-22-2004, 04:22 PM
Aces McGee Aces McGee is offline
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Default Re: Too aggressive with my underpair or SOP?

what better hands? 99 and TT are the only ones I can think of, but I don't know what they're doing at the river to begin with if they plan on folding fifth street.

-McGee
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  #18  
Old 06-22-2004, 05:33 PM
Nate tha' Great Nate tha' Great is offline
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Default Re: Too aggressive with my underpair or SOP?

[ QUOTE ]
what better hands? 99 and TT are the only ones I can think of, but I don't know what they're doing at the river to begin with if they plan on folding fifth street.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't see an opponent with TT calling the turn while thinking along these lines?

[turn] "Okay, he might have a J, or even a monster, but this guy is pretty aggressive when he gets involved in a hand and it could just be a flush draw, or maybe a flush draw plus a pair."

[river] "Oops, the flush draw came through. He bet it too. Now I'm definitely toast."

I don't know. A while ago, I resolved to bet scare cards in spots where I had the initiative in the hand and could safely fold to a raise. How many incorrect folds this has induced, I don't know - for obvious reasons, it's much easier to see the calling and raising mistakes that our opponents make then their folding mistakes. But I definitely have the sense that this has made my game stronger.
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