What is going on here?

MicK412 · #1 12-19-2005, 06:10 PM

MP2 has very taggish stats, about 15/7 over 180 hands. MP1 just sat down but seems laggish. I felt so completly lost on this hand, especially river. I ended up folding, and so did MP1. Does MP2 have to have 77 here?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, CO calls, SB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (17 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, MP2 raises, I fold??

Final Pot: 23 BB

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie) · #2 12-19-2005, 06:18 PM

Ugly turn card.

This looks fine, including the river fold... it will probably cost you 3 more bets to see a showdown here and I don't think you are good the 10% of the time you need to make a call OK.

Nick C · #3 12-19-2005, 06:25 PM

MP1 is probably making a pointless raise on the river with an ace.

I doubt MP2 is using this silly raise of MP1's to make a play. He probably decided to go into a slowplay when he improved to sevens full (or quads) on the turn.

Although your turn checkraise faces the field with two cold, your play does otherwise represent a 7 pretty well. And certainly MP2 has seen people checkraise the turn with monsters in a way that drives people out before. (Edit: Besides, the bet didn't come from where you expected it to.) If MP2 didn't have at least top boat, you'd think he'd be worried. And is the TAG really checking when checked to with a vulnerable hand in this four-way pot and then calling two bets to him without a 7? It's possible, but his turn play looks suspicous.

Or it does in retrospect once he 3-bets the river, in any case. I think you made a good fold.

#4 12-19-2005, 06:31 PM

Don't you think that MP2 would have raised the turn with 7's full or quad 7's? What overcall could he really have been going with since CO, Hero, and MP1 were already invested in the pot. That just seems strange to me that he's waking up on the river after just cc-ing the turn.

Nick C · #5 12-19-2005, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think that MP2 would have raised the turn with 7's full or quad 7's? What overcall could he really have been going with since CO, Hero, and MP1 were already invested in the pot. That just seems strange to me that he's waking up on the river after just cc-ing the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's strange. Some people love to slowplay, though. Maybe MP2 wants to make the hand last as long as possible. A player doesn't get quads very often, after all.

If MP2 is trying to use MP1's river bet to steal, then he's making a very bold play. Hero has acted like he has a boat. (And he in fact does.) Unless MP2 has a read on Hero that we don't know about, I don't think MP2 really expects Hero to fold.

Grease · #6 12-19-2005, 06:41 PM

I keep changing what I think about the hand, but I think that it's ok for the most part. Part of me says 3-bet the flop, part of me says wait and SNG on the turn (I like the c/r after the 7 fell). The river seems fine, unless you think that MP2 is putting a move on you because he knows that you know MP1 will probably call and use that to lever you out of the pot. I think if MP2 had 77 he'd just lead the turn or 3-bet when it came back to him. There is too much risk for him to let this get checked through if he's got quads (assume he is indeed a TAG).

I'm going to go out on a very thin limb here and say that MP2 put a move on you here with an overpair (88 or 99). I just can't see him checking that turn with quads.

Please correct me, my game is rusty and I'm hitting up Turning Stone Wed-Thur and need to get my sea legs back.

JackThree · #7 12-19-2005, 07:04 PM

a flop 3-bet is awesome

too bad the turn screwed your hand =(

Carmine · #8 12-19-2005, 07:09 PM

I don't know. With only the descriptions of Lag and Tag to go by it is hard for me to put MP2 on 77(I think he would tried to isolate a limper and a lag PF and would have raised the turn. Not to mention risking having it get checked through) or A7(again I think he isolates or folds PF. More likely folds with a 15% vpip. And would have raised the turn again).

On the other hand you have pretty much defined your hand between the flop and turn. Nonetheless, I think I call this on the river because MP2's play from CC preflop to the wierd play on all other streets just doesan't add up to me.

chief444 · #9 12-19-2005, 08:00 PM

I 3-bet the flop and lead any turn. It's an 18sb pot. Why screw around and risk missing a bunch of bets that you know you'll get if you play it fast? River seems fine.

The Goober · #10 12-19-2005, 08:38 PM

Mick,

This is a crazy hand. I'm having a hard time putting anybody on anything. If MP2 is really a TAG, how many hands is he cold-calling with PF with no other callers yet? I also have a hard time seeing him not 3-betting the turn with quads or a 7 with all those people in.

The only part I don't like is the turn CR. CO posted PF, flat-called a raise, called the flop and now bets out when the board pairs the 7. I'm not going to give him credit just yet for 7's full, but it seems reasonably likely. Your raise faces the field with 2 cold, but what hands are you protecting against? This seems like a classic WA/WB situation, and I'd rather get overcalls from hands like overcards and overpairs that are drawing dead or to 2 outs.

I'd probably call the river because I'd be so confused, and I'd probably be wrong doing so.