Why do people love israel so much??

[twowords]

There has been a lot of revisionist history in this thread and here's a few examples.

1. That Jews and Arabs had been living in Palestine, until finally the UN decided to give the Jews their own state.

This fails to recognize that in the Early 20th Century, Palestine was a British-controled territory consisting of a vast Arab majority. The Zionist movement convinced the British to allow huge numbers of Jewish immigrants against the will of almost the entire "Palestinian" population, while at the same promising the Arabs independence which they would never recieve.

2. It was clear that the Jews needed their own state.

Certainly not, in fact many traditional Jews did not want this and opposed the Zionist movement. The idea had support from the US leadership, but this came from sympathy for the holocost and from the domestic political boost which came from supporting a Jewish state. It did not come from a need and a calculation of the viability of such a state. Fianlly, the Jewish state was placed in a location where all its neighbors opposed it, and no reparations or agreements were ever made with those who were displaced.

3. The UN partition was fair or reasonable.

Jews, less than 1/3 of the population and owning 6% of the land, recieved 50% of Palestine including a significant % of the most fertile land. The partition vote was opposed by the rest of the region, but the vote was won through intense US lobbying, which included threats of the suspension of aide (privately by senators, justices, etc, not officially) to certain UN Security Council heads of state. The partition needed military force to impose given the fighting and terror that was already occuring, but neither Britain (who had declared it would leave Palestine to the UN) nor the US were willing to use military force to enforce it. The vote did give legitimacy in declaring Israel in 1948, and various poorly orgainized Arab states invaded to take back control of Palestine. The vote was made knowing the Arabs would never accept it and the declaration of Israel was made knowing this would prompt an Arab attack.

4. The Palestinians were displaced.

Incidents such as the Deir Yassin masscre were the efforts of Israeli terror groups (with the tacit support of the Zionist leadership) to force million of Palestinians to flee their homes as Israel took control of most of Palestine, doubling its size allotted by the UN partision. Millions of refugees were never allowed back into their homes since that would ruin the purity of Israel. Sadly, the Arab states saw the acceptance of said refugees as acceptance of Israel and refused to allow them citizenship.

5. Israel was attacked in numerous wars in last 60 years.

The major wars, 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973, two began with a calculated Israeli attack, 1956 and 1967. In 1956, the US forced Israel to give up its gains taken from Egypt. In 1967, Israel occupied vast regions and it has maintained a military occupation of the West Bank (the rest of Palestine) until this day and again not allowing refugees back. The rest of the territory was given back in return for agreements of non-beligerency.

5. Israel is and has been the underdog.

Population-wise sure. But Israel had always posessed superior weapons and tactics from its western sponsors (France, and then the US). By the 1960s, Israel was the superpower of the area and US intelliegence predicted it would win in a war versus all of its neighbors. Since then it has steadily increased its military superiority. The underdogs of the last 50 years have been the Palestinians.

Anyhoo, support Israel all you want (and we, the US, certainly do) but history is history and you can't change it.

[ansky451]

All your points are "valid," however there are some key factual errors. There are millions of Palestinians today, but at the time of the creation of Israel the number was several hundred thousand. They multiplied. To say that millions were displaced from their homes, is a lie.

Not all Palestinians were forced to leave. In fact, a large portion were encouraged to leave by the prospect of a full out Arab invasion which they assumed would be successful, and then they could return to "their" land.

[twowords]

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Now in the Middle East every Arab/Muslim country want the Jews to die. Why?

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See the last 60 years.

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Distilling this issue down to "the last 60 years" shows how little you understand about it. Do yourself a favor and familiarize yourself with the plight of the Jews for, say, the last 2000 years. Reasonable people can have problems with the State of Israel. But to insinuate that the reason the world "hates" the Jews, or the reason many Arabs want to eradicate Israel and the Jews, is because of events of the past 60 years, is incredibly naive.

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Truly not a comprehensive post on my part I apologize. I just thought the question he posed was too stupid to reply extensively.

Now I am afraid that the drive to destroy Israel does come from the last 60 years. Before that there was no Israel. Tracing Arab actions against Israel to hatred of Jews before that that is not convincing.

Before you try to take apart that last comment, lets remember that under the Arab dominanted Middle East of the last 1000+ years, Jews were second-class citizens just like Catholics but were certainly treated better than they were in Europe. They were people of the book, however misguided according to the Arabs. Remember, I am not ignoring the historic plight of the Jews, in fact I am sure this is what drives them in their part of the wars of the past 60 years.

However, the flooding of Palestine with Zionist Jews withe the tepid consent of the Britain controllers of Palestine was seen as yet another Western incursion and attempt at Imperialism. Everybody got independence around this time, colonialism was shaken off to a great extent. The Palestinaians were promised the same but tragically the entrance of the Zionists came just as the Palestinians were achieving their own statehood.

I propose to you that if some sect of western-supported Catholics or even freaking Eskimoes had done the same thing the Zionists did, which amounted to a western-supported snatching of the Arabs land in 1948, and continued to act as Israel has, then the events which followed would not have been much different.

[twowords]

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All your points are "valid," however there are some key factual errors. There are millions of Palestinians today, but at the time of the creation of Israel the number was several hundred thousand. They multiplied. To say that millions were displaced from their homes, is a lie.


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True. Total population of Palestine was around 2 million, so yes your're right it was in the hundreds of thousands. Today, the number with "refugee status" is around 7 million, which is also from further Israeli occupations.
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Not all Palestinians were forced to leave. In fact, a large portion were encouraged to leave by the prospect of a full out Arab invasion which they assumed would be successful, and then they could return to "their" land.

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Israel enacted a deliberate policy of outsting Arabs from the territory they took over. This was done through terror tactics including the Deir Yassin massacre and propaganda which threatened future massecres.

Your story was used as an ex post facto Israeli stance, to justify deniying the reutrn of the refugees. Even if true, the main reason for the Arab flight are stated above.

[tomdemaine]

Why don't all the Jews (or palestinians for that matter) just move to Nevada. There's much more space there than is needed, it's just as inhospitable a climate but with nickel slots and hookers. Sounds ideal to me, they can build a paradise in the desert all over again but without that pesky constant threat of annihilation thing.

I am not afraid of Jews blowing up my city (NYC), I am afraid of Muslims terrorists blowing up my city, as they have already done. Pretty simple. I'm on Isreal's side, and I am glad the US supports it.

[Meech]

He who has the gold, makes the rules. Tis a bitch sometimes.

[theweatherman]

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Truly not a comprehensive post on my part I apologize. I just thought the question he posed was too stupid to reply extensively.

Now I am afraid that the drive to destroy Israel does come from the last 60 years. Before that there was no Israel. Tracing Arab actions against Israel to hatred of Jews before that that is not convincing.

Before you try to take apart that last comment, lets remember that under the Arab dominanted Middle East of the last 1000+ years, Jews were second-class citizens just like Catholics but were certainly treated better than they were in Europe. They were people of the book, however misguided according to the Arabs. Remember, I am not ignoring the historic plight of the Jews, in fact I am sure this is what drives them in their part of the wars of the past 60 years.

However, the flooding of Palestine with Zionist Jews withe the tepid consent of the Britain controllers of Palestine was seen as yet another Western incursion and attempt at Imperialism. Everybody got independence around this time, colonialism was shaken off to a great extent. The Palestinaians were promised the same but tragically the entrance of the Zionists came just as the Palestinians were achieving their own statehood.

I propose to you that if some sect of western-supported Catholics or even freaking Eskimoes had done the same thing the Zionists did, which amounted to a western-supported snatching of the Arabs land in 1948, and continued to act as Israel has, then the events which followed would not have been much different.

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twowords is far better at articulating the issue than I am, but what he has said here is pretty much exactly correct.

Persecution through out history does notgive the right to take over land. dozens of groups have faced continued abuse during the ages, blacks and gypsies come to mind, but no one even brings up the notion of a nation state. Israel is an illegal state that really has no right to exist.

Most of the Arab hatred for the Jews does come from the existence of the Jewish state. What other issues would th earab world have with the jews if they werent being subjugated by them? Probably not much more than your average religious prejudice (like they have for christians)

I'm not sure why the US continues to expose itself by backing Israel, and I'm even more confused as to why the hell they have nukes but the ARabs aren't allowed to have them. Israel has commited just as many acts of aggression against its neighbors as the other middle eastern contries have. They are no different in my mind.

[BCPVP]

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Israel is an illegal state that really has no right to exist.

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I ask again. Why is Israel an illegal state with no right to exist while America is not? What makes a state "legal"?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Israel is an illegal state that really has no right to exist.

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I ask again. Why is Israel an illegal state with no right to exist while America is not? What makes a state "legal"?

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You are slightly derailing, but this is actually a very interesting question. Some EU-thing (comitee, bureau or something) had a discussion on this and they did not find objective parameters.