Why do people love israel so much??

[Gamblor]

There is so much bull [censored] in this thread I don't know where to begin.

Everyone who thinks they are smart because they claim to know more than the majority is really a tool.

[ACPlayer]

This is exactly so:

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Jews were not oppressed in Arab lands. Muslims considered Jews and Christians people of the "book" and considered that their religion should be respected. This is precisely what caused problems for Jews in the western world and in Russia: their religion. While Jews were considered dhimmi, and thus were not of the same status as Muslims, oppression is the wrong word to apply to Jewish life in Arab/Muslim states. No historian who has studied Jewish existence in Arab states comes to this conclusion

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Jews have been oppressed almost exclusively only by Christians.

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"Arab oppression of Jews existed and that it is a contributing reason the Arabs and Jews have historically had problems, and a partial justification for Israel to have been given to the Jews."

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Jews were not oppressed in Arab lands.

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Andy, as much as I respect your historical knowledge, this is quite inaccurate.

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Muslims considered Jews and Christians people of the "book" and considered that their religion should be respected.

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Haha, so their religion is "respected" but they can't worship in public? So they have to pay a special tax? So Jews and Christians can't preach Judaism or Christianity to Muslims, but Muslims can preach Islam to Jews and Christians? A Muslim's word as a witness in court is to be legally considered worth twice that of the word of a Jew--legally speaking?

That's not RESPECT; that's DISCRIMINATORY LEGISLATION and oppression--and while not terribly bad hundreds of years ago, it still exists today and IS very bad by today's standards. And it also existed and was very bad about the time Israel was formed.

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This is precisely what caused problems for Jews in the western world and in Russia: their religion. While Jews were considered dhimmi, and thus were not of the same status as Muslims, oppression is the wrong word to apply to Jewish life in Arab/Muslim states. No historian who has studied Jewish existence in Arab states comes to this conclusion.

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Dhimmitude IS oppression; there is no other rational way to look at it by 20th/21st century standards. And I assume that since it existed around the time of Israel's formation, along with many oppressive laws, that measuring it by modern standards has a proper place in this discussion. By the way, all that "Protection" meant, was that if you do what we say, and remain subjugated under our laws which DON'T grant you equal rights, we won't kill you. If you don't proselytize a Muslim, we won't kill you. If you don't build a temple or church higher than a mosque, we won't burn it down. If you don't worship in public, we won't arrest you. Exactly how the hell is that not oppression?

(excerpt)"...And the first church in Saudi Arabia is opening when?

On April 21st (2005), the Saudi religious police (known as the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice”), scooped up a criminal gang in a raid on a Riyadh apartment. The desperate and dangerous felons (40 Pakistani men, women and children) were listening to Christian sermons on tape and praying in the name of Jesus. All of which are hanging offenses in the most Muslim nation on Earth.

A Saudi police source was quoted as saying, “These people tried to spread the poison (i.e., Christianity) and their beliefs to others, by means of distributing pamphlets and (missionary) publications.” The villains!" (end excerpt by Don Feder)

Come on Andy. That's not oppression???

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Thus, Arabs and Jews did not have historical problems of anywhere close to the magnitude of the problems problems that Christians and Jews had. Jewish treatment in Arab states had absolutely nothing to do with the Zionist movement and the justification for the formation of the state of Israel. There is nothing in any of the Zionist writings about the condition of Jews in Arab states.

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So what, even if that is true? It's still good reason and good partial justification for the existence of Israel, and it remains a good justification today. Arab laws are HORRIBLY discriminatory against Jews; Arabs are even legally allowed to do things to Jews that Jews cannot do to Arabs.

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BTW, Israel defines itself as a Jewish state. I can move to Israel and I immediately become a citizen. My daughter in law cannot do so. The problems Arabs have in Israel boil down to Jewish insistence on being the DOMINANT religion and politics (instead of merely being an EQUAL religion), and to laws denying non-Jews equal rights--plus a certain amount of plain anti-Arab sentiment (often with a background religious component).

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I am sorry to say it but I expect better of you than to ignore DEGREE in this comparison. Arabs are free to practice Islam in Israel without restrictions such as Jews must legally observe in Arab states. Judaism in Israel does not SUPPRESS Islam in Israel; there are no laws that Muslims cannot pray in public, cannot proselytize, etc. So you are flipping my meaning of the phrase "dominant religion and politics" to mean something else.

More importantly, Arabs are legally granted full human rights protection in Israel. Don't you remember the post wherein I cited sections of the legal codes of various Arab states? Things like: a Muslim committing a serious offense against a Jew or a Christian or Bahai is not nearly so punishable a crime as the converse, LEGALLY speaking. In fact, in one Arab country (I forget which), a Bahai has no legal status at all, so if a Muslim kills a Bahai, that is not even a crime! That is in their damned legal code, for crissakes, and I posted it verbatim. Do I need to go search and post their legal codes all over again?

[DVaut1]

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More importantly, Arabs are legally granted full human rights protection in Israel.

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This is a highly (not sure how else to emphasize this) statement.

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More importantly, Arabs are legally granted full human rights protection in Israel.

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This is a highly (not sure how else to emphasize this) statement.

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Arabs have FAR more civil rights in Israel, than Jews have in Arab countries--(and in Israel their civil rights are on a par with the rights people enjoy in other first-world countries. The rights of Jews in most Arab countries however are not).

That's the point I'm trying to make; does it read better now? (did you not know what point I was trying to make?)

[DVaut1]

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Arabs have FAR more civil rights in Israel, than Jews have in Arab countries

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This is highly debateable.

Did you not know what point I was trying to make? At the very least, you should attempt to narrow down what you say when you refer to 'Arab' countries, as they certainly don't have uniform laws and respect for civil rights. It's a rather strange point to begin with - there aren't many Jews living in the Arab countries, anyway. I think a majority of the Jews in the Arab countries live in North Africa (specifically Morocco), where they're given full civil rights protections.

[andyfox]

From Bernard Lewis's book, The Jews of Islam:

"Discrimination was alway there, permanent and indeed necessary, inherent in the system and instituionalized in law and practice. Persecution, that is to say, violent and active repression, was rare and atypical. They were not often obliged to make the choice, which confronted Muslims and Jews in reconquered Spain, between exile, apostasy, and death. They were not subject to any major territorial or occupational restrictions, such as were the common lot of Jews in premodern Europe."

"The only real economic penalty imposed on the dhimmis was fiscal. They had to pay higher taxes. In their own internal affairs, the dhimmis normally enjoyed some autonomy, being subject to their own chiefs and judges, and living, at least in family, personal, and religious matters, according to their own laws.

Lewis's conclusion: "Islamic practice on the whole turned out to be gentler than Islamic precept--the reverse of the situation in Christendom."

Zionism was a response to Christian antisemitism and mistreatment of Jews in the West, where the vast majority of Jews resided. Islams' attitude toward Jews was one of contempt; Christianity's was one of hatred.

As for the following: "BTW, Israel defines itself as a Jewish state. I can move to Israel and I immediately become a citizen. My daughter in law cannot do so. The problems Arabs have in Israel boil down to Jewish insistence on being the DOMINANT religion and politics (instead of merely being an EQUAL religion), and to laws denying non-Jews equal rights--plus a certain amount of plain anti-Arab sentiment (often with a background religious component).": I took your statement to show that there are two sides to the coin. A state that defines itself as a Jewish state can never treat it's non-Jewish citizens in a fair manner. I do not mean to insinuate, as you seem to think I do, that there is a comparison between the horrific government of Saudi Arabia (among a host of others) and the flawed democracy of Israel. What I do mean to insinuate is that an attitude that the Arabs are a sea of barbaric savages and the Israelis are angelic democrats is exactly the kind of attitude that has gotten us to the point we are at today. I expect more of Israel, both objectively because it has had less benighted leadership, and more subjectively, because of my Jewish heritage.

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Arabs have FAR more civil rights in Israel, than Jews have in Arab countries

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This is highly debateable.

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Not if you know anything about the legal codes of Arab countries.

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Did you not know what point I was trying to make?

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At the very least, you should attempt to narrow down what you say when you refer to 'Arab' countries, as they certainly don't have uniform laws and respect for civil rights.

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No, because I did all that before on this forum, together with reprinting the actual legal codes of the countries--and I presumed Andy would remember that at least in bulk. I'm trying to have a discussion with him; I'm not trying to convince everyone who has joined this discussion for the first time. Sorry but I don't archive all that stuff, and while I COULD and MIGHT go to the trouble of doing it all AGAIN, that won't be necessary if Andy recalls it.

[DVaut1]

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No, because I did all that before on this forum, together with reprinting the actual legal codes of the countries--and I presumed Andy would remember that at least in bulk. I'm trying to have a discussion with him; I'm not trying to convince everyone who has joined this discussion for the first time. Sorry but I don't archive all that stuff, and while I COULD and MIGHT go to the trouble of doing it all AGAIN, that won't be necessary if Andy recalls it.

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As far as I know, there aren't many Jews living in Arab countries - perhaps due in some part to the discrimination they've faced. But the majority of Jews in Arab countries today live in Morocco, where they're given full civil rights protections.

I realize there are Jews living in Syria and elsewhere in the Arab world who don't receive civil rights protections - but then again, since we're referring to Syria, that's not exactly a breaktaking claim, as Syria is a notorious human rights abuser, be it of Jews or women or political dissidents. I'll grant it's certainly abhorant, and I would say far worse than any civil rights abuses Israel is guilty of.

But I'm also claiming that the Moroccan Jew has more access to civil rights than the Palestinian in Israel. So what I'm claiming is that we're dealing with a complicated mosaic here, that can't be easily boiled down to:

"Arabs violate Jews rights alot more than Israel violates Arabs rights". It's not necessarily true, and certainly open for debate in my mind.

Lastly, if you're trying to have a discussion with andy, and only andy, and wish no input from others, you should take it to PM. If it's on the public forum, I assume anyone from the public is allowed to comment.

[andyfox]

I don't recall it, but it's not relevant, at least as far as I'm concerned. Let's just consider Saudi Arabia and we can all, I would think, accept that their government is horrible. I never intended to compare their government with Israel's.