"If you can fold top pair after the flop"

[Michael Davis]

I cringe everytime I read this line. The idea that this is why experts make money and can play more hands than regular players is risible.

If you call a raise in a multiway pot with Q6s in the BB, which is of course correct, you have to be willing to put more money in the pot when a Q comes as the top card on board. The idea that you can get away from this hand without doing so is absurd, and would entail often playing top pair like you're holding poison, folding way too much in big pots when you have a semblance of a hand.

I have read this line, I think, in just about every poker book I have ever read. This way of thinking screwed me out of a lot of money before I realized it was some sort of joke perpetrated by the poker authorities who knew the line would be overstated by studious, yet overly devoted readers.

I do not in any way mean to say that folding top pair is not sometimes correct. Clearly, it is. But the idea that being able to cut ties with top pair is some sort of huge advantage for good players is dumb.

-Michael

[elysium]

hi mike

andy fox says that 'players who call 2-cold are always on the sideline.' that tidbit of advice goes a long way in determining what to do with top pair, zero kicker.

[andyfox]

The first place I read about the situation was, of course, the loose games section of HPFAP. The example there is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the cut-off behind 4 limpers. Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and there's a bet and a call. The summary says "in other words you can be trapped with this hand. But, if you are a good player, you won't get trapped.. You should be able to play K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], flop a king, and still often fold.

I might quibble with the "often," but it seems good advice to me. Josh W. recently posted an excellent analysis of calling from the small blind with K-x or Q-x and how that can lead to being trapped as well. [I think the thread was "Rags in the Small Blind" on this forum.]

Maybe being able to cut ties with K-x or Q-x is not a "huge" advantage, but it is a decided one that better players have over their competition.

[El Dukie]

One key difference between the examples Andy and Michael are using: Andy's citing the example where you've limped in late position. Michael's discussing when you've called a raise multiway in the blind. In Michael's case, you might be getting odds to take one off to see the turn and proceed from there (though cold-calling a raise may often be wrong). In Andy's case, the pot's much smaller, so a fold (even for a single bet) will more often be correct.

[Clarkmeister]

"Maybe being able to cut ties with K-x or Q-x is not a "huge" advantage, but it is a decided one that better players have over their competition. "

I don't know, it comes up from time to time, but how often are good players really even in there with Kx and Qx. I think the advantage isn't being able to "lay down top pair", the advantage is "being able to read hands". I mucked a 9Td flush draw on a Jd5x2d flop the other day. I wouldn't call the ability to muck a flush draw on the flop an advantage, it was simply a byproduct of a read I made.

Maybe we are arguing semantics here. I just don't think that folding top pair is really a skill unto itself or something that should even be considered a desireable ability.

[Noo Yawk]

I agree with Clark that the ability to read hands is the advantage. Folding top pair, no kicker is no different than folding an overpair or any reasonably strong hand if the situation calls for it. As a matter of fact, the ability to value bet middle pair, or raise weaker holdings in certain situations requires the same skills as those required in folding top pair. Bad players lose money here because they never lay down ANY pair, let alone top pair.

[James282]

Well stated Clark. I suppose that it wuld be better t say, avoid playing said hand if you cant play well enough to release it if you dont flop well, and sometimes, top pair just isnt good enough. A lot of players cant do this, and give up the EV they would gain when the flop is kind by playing poorly when it is deceptively kind.
-James

[Mikey]

"I mucked a 9Td flush draw on a Jd5x2d flop the other day. I wouldn't call the ability to muck a flush draw on the flop an advantage, it was simply a byproduct of a read I made."

This is interesting and I'm surprised no one jumped on it. Would you be kind enough to share with us why you folded a flush draw?

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
"I mucked a 9Td flush draw on a Jd5x2d flop the other day. I wouldn't call the ability to muck a flush draw on the flop an advantage, it was simply a byproduct of a read I made."

This is interesting and I'm surprised no one jumped on it. Would you be kind enough to share with us why you folded a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely because he thought someone had a bigger flush draw. My guess is that, because of the preflop and flop action, he could very reliably put a player on exactly AKd or A5d, probably the former.

[Mikey]

How can someone be so accurate in their read as to know his or her opponent is holding precisiely two cards of the same suit which are on board greater than the two cards of the same exact draw in their own hand?

I want to hear what Clarky has to say?