Miscommunication of Floor reading leads to Big Pot. Part I

arod15 · #1 10-01-2005, 06:29 PM

I cross posted this one to as i'm curious if I overplayed this. 1-2NL AC Effective Stacks 300
Hero has been running well and has everyone way covered (1200) I was there with fellow 2+2er Maulik, Maulik raises to 20 from CO. Fold (I think SB folds)
I cold call with 4-5 spades. It's loose but I know I can outmanever him after the flop. The hand isnt about this call so dont flame it, it was bad, yes blah.

Then dealer says ""you acted out of turn"
SB hadn't called or folded yet, now He pops it up to 75
So I pull back my 20 and she says "You have to call now"
I said how much, she said "55 total" I asked her again, if i had to call all of it she said yes I acted out of turn. I was pissed but was so deep I didnt bother to ask the floor (I only had to call 20 it turns out) It was a big miscommunication.

Now total pot is (171)
Maulik Folds (bad fold that is in Part II)
The flop is 6 7 2r
SB pushes for 80
Whats your play here. Isnt it an auto call? 3-1 on my money and I suspect villian is on AK AQ? I knew he was going to stop and go, he had been running poor all night and wasnt much of a player. Results later....

xorbie · #2 10-01-2005, 06:47 PM

It doesn't matter what the hell villain is on. Call.

whittiphil · #3 10-01-2005, 07:38 PM

?? You have to call, you're getting odds.

I think you've got pot odds even if you know he has AA right?

arod15 · #4 10-01-2005, 07:55 PM

That was my thoughts exactly.

w_alloy · #5 10-01-2005, 08:54 PM

I know you said not to talk about it, but I am new to NL and I dont see how any winning player could ever call 10Xbb bets with such a weak hand, especially against a 2+2er. I know some pros do things similiar to this (not this bad though)but that is at levels where shania is much more of a concern, and many have great card reading skills and play too tight. This is not the case at 1-2, is it?

Sorry to bring it up but I'm curious how much of a mistake people think this is, Because my understanding of NL is quite poor.

Also, I dont really feel bad attempting to hijack this because your main question is so blatently obvious it doesnt need to be asked.

mason55 · #6 10-01-2005, 09:01 PM

You're not looking for shania as much as you're looking to stack him with a disguised hand. A lot of times in NL you'll just float around and give a little action here and there until you stack someone. It's not like limit where you slowly build up, generally your big winning sessions are going to come from stacking 2 or 3 people.

Also, it's very tough to make an isolated mistake preflop in NL. If you're frequently calling raises and folding with crap, sure, that's a mistake. But a good postflop player would have trouble making too many mistakes preflop at NL. Allllll your money is made after the flop. This is why it's possible to be a winning player with a 10vpip or a 35 vpip.

w_alloy · #7 10-01-2005, 09:03 PM

That answers my question, thanks for the well thought out response.

xorbie · #8 10-01-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you said not to talk about it, but I am new to NL and I dont see how any winning player could ever call 10Xbb bets with such a weak hand, especially against a 2+2er. I know some pros do things similiar to this (not this bad though)but that is at levels where shania is much more of a concern, and many have great card reading skills and play too tight. This is not the case at 1-2, is it?

Sorry to bring it up but I'm curious how much of a mistake people think this is, Because my understanding of NL is quite poor.

Also, I dont really feel bad attempting to hijack this because your main question is so blatently obvious it doesnt need to be asked.

[/ QUOTE ]

In limit, implied odds are fixed. Even if villain goes totally apeshit postflop, you can still only win 10BB (well, depends on what the cap is, but you get the point). In NL, you can take everything in their stack.

The other main difference between limit and NL is that it's much tougher to take marginal hands to showdown HU in NL. In limit, you can get to showdown for 2.5BB if you wanted to. In NL, that's all up to villain.

So in light of that, if you make a call PF with a hand like 45[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] you are hoping to either (a) be able to stack their hand if you hit a great hand (two pair, trips, straight, flush) or (b) be able to get villain to fold the best hand fairly often. In some situations, it can definitely be a combination of the two, which is often times done by sembibluffing with decent equity in situations where villain won't raise without the goods so you get him to fold A or K high hands but also get money in the pot with fairly decent equity against big pairs.

arod15 · #9 10-02-2005, 12:28 AM

Im playing him not my hand. Maulik has become a lot better player. Ihave coached him and read his HH very often. I know hows he plays. Atleast 4 times a week. When you know someone that well as long as you dont put him on a high pocket pair there is a ton of opportunity to outplay him later. Also he was on the button where i know he raises with wide range of hands. To answer your question i called only because it was him And if i missed real big id fold to hit. I folded a big ham too him and won a few with rags. No you fold there always but i didnt because of who raised and his postion.