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  #1  
Old 11-05-2005, 02:36 PM
bigt439 bigt439 is offline
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Default $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero (t920)
MP3 (t1030)
CO (t1195)
Button (t680)
SB (t985)
BB (t1320)
UTG (t940)
UTG+1 (t980)
UTG+2 (t975)
MP1 (t975)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t175</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t100.

Flop: (t375) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t375) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t225</font>, Hero calls t225.

River: (t825) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t520 (All-In))</font>

Who likes it? Thoughts to come.
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  #2  
Old 11-05-2005, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

Honestly I hate not being the aggressor. I raise it more preflop and I lead the flop. I hate giving free cards to an ace, a small pair og a flushdraw.
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  #3  
Old 11-05-2005, 03:14 PM
microbet microbet is offline
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Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

I don't think it is that unusual, but I bet the flop and barring that, raise the turn. I would think you usually take a more aggressive (less risky) line. Are you experimenting or is there some read involved? Or am I wrong about your usual line?
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  #4  
Old 11-05-2005, 04:17 PM
bigt439 bigt439 is offline
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Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it is that unusual, but I bet the flop and barring that, raise the turn. I would think you usually take a more aggressive (less risky) line. Are you experimenting or is there some read involved? Or am I wrong about your usual line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, yeah I usually play pretty aggressively in general but this wasn't like a concious idea to experiment. I am trying to think less about what I "should" do and more on how the situation feels. That doesn't mean this is right necessarily, but that has been my thought process recently.

Here I'm thinking I'm ahead almost always on the flop. If he has QQ it'll be failry easy for me to find out and lose a relatively small amount (because people always weak bet top set), but this isn't really the reasoning behind my play, just a nice biproduct.

On the flop he's drawing to 2 - 5 outs, except for the very rare instance he has AKdd or maybe a weaker suited A of diamonds. I've touched on this before, but I'm not terribly worried about flush draws, because they make up such a small portion of his range and stacks are so shallow. So if he has a Q and I check the flop I stack him almost every time. I stack him alot without checking, but I definitely do if I check it through. But by checking I let him think his TT or JJ is good or convince him to take a shot with his AK. I just call on the turn because I don't want to blow him off one of these hands when he's likely to bet again or call a value bet on the end. He's still drawing extremely thin, and alot of the cards he is drawing to will be relatively obvious if he hits (A or Q). So I think by checking the flop I get a bet on the turn, and by just calling the turn I pick up a bet or a call on the river sometimes.

These are my thoughts.
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  #5  
Old 11-05-2005, 04:25 PM
microbet microbet is offline
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Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

Your reasoning is all good, but you will be mis-playing against:

People who (especially having checked the flop) will only bet or call a bet with AK or PP if they hit.

or

People who will call down some bets, and either wouldn't bluff or would only make a weak bluff.

or

flush draw.

But, you know all this.
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  #6  
Old 11-05-2005, 04:35 PM
bigt439 bigt439 is offline
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Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

[ QUOTE ]
Your reasoning is all good, but you will be mis-playing against:

People who (especially having checked the flop) will only bet or call a bet with AK or PP if they hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think almost anyone puts in some cash with a PP if I check that flop. In fact I think it would be pretty damn weak to fold out second pair after the flop went check check, and party certainly isn't notorious for weak players in the first couple of levels.

[ QUOTE ]

or

People who will call down some bets, and either wouldn't bluff or would only make a weak bluff.

or

flush draw.

But, you know all this.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are much more relevant IMO, but this is all relative to how often I think I'm up against these players and how much value I think I get when I'm not. Which is I guess part of this post.
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  #7  
Old 11-05-2005, 06:27 PM
rybones rybones is offline
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Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

[ QUOTE ]
These are much more relevant IMO, but this is all relative to how often I think I'm up against these players and how much value I think I get when I'm not. Which is I guess part of this post.


[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, you are often against A,Q; K,Q; or a flush draw in this situation. Hell at the 55s I still see donks who will raise and call a pf re-raise with Q,9 soooted. With this in mind, I think you needed to re-raise the turn. If villian was betting his draw you will not get paid off on the river when he misses. If he folded then you can see how the turn raise would have helped you. If called then my guess is he would have also called a turn push. Imo the turn was played incorrectly. This is just my thougt though.

So what happened, did he call? If so, what did he have? My guess is K,Q

Ryan
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  #8  
Old 11-05-2005, 06:29 PM
bigt439 bigt439 is offline
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Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are much more relevant IMO, but this is all relative to how often I think I'm up against these players and how much value I think I get when I'm not. Which is I guess part of this post.


[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, you are often against A,Q; K,Q; or a flush draw in this situation. Hell at the 55s I still see donks who will raise and call a pf re-raise with Q,9 soooted. With this in mind, I think you needed to re-raise the turn. If villian was betting his draw you will not get paid off on the river when he misses. If he folded then you can see how the turn raise would have helped you. If called then my guess is he would have also called a turn push. Imo the turn was played incorrectly. This is just my thougt though.

So what happened, did he call? If so, what did he have? My guess is K,Q

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this thread isn't generating a whole lot of discussion, which is too bad because I thought this was a very interesting hand. Anyways he called the river with 99. I think he has hands like this, and plays them like this way more than you guys think. Why wouldn't he lead second pair on the turn? The river call is bad, but so are the players in this game, that's why I like this line. Anyways this shouldn't kill the discussion, if anything it'll probably help it actually.
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  #9  
Old 11-05-2005, 08:39 PM
pooh74 pooh74 is offline
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Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

W/o reading the whole thread the first thing that comes to mind is that you are basically slowplaying an overpair. You are right that people worry WAY to much about FDs catching up etc...but thats not what i am talking about.

You probably made more chips here when villain has an underpair as opposed to Ahigh, but maybe not. My main point is that opponents in general are more likely to put their chips in on the flop because they think they still have outs or that you whiffed (people in poker tend to think the opposite of what they see-overly suspicious) so by betting flops with your good hands you are making more t$ in the long run than by playing it as you did here.

Granted, I will give you that in your particular hand, you may have made more than you would've by betting the flop.

Good post though!
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  #10  
Old 11-05-2005, 09:41 PM
rybones rybones is offline
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Posts: 237
Default Re: $55\'s... I wrote the book on FPS

[ QUOTE ]
I think he has hands like this, and plays them like this way more than you guys think.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly my point when I said he might be playing Q,9 soooted.

[ QUOTE ]
The river call is bad, but so are the players in this game, that's why I like this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly why I hate this line. Yes, this idiot payed you off anyway, but what if he was playing the draw? or what if his 9 hit on the river. Calling that turn is fine with the nuts when you are sure the other guy has a big hand and will pay you off no matter what!!

Your line means one of two things: 1) some donks will fold and you will loose the extra t500 or so; or 2) you have just bet into the nuts as he caught his flush.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways this shouldn't kill the discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

discussion implies that you respond to what others have said. yes you gave me the answer to what his hand was, but I still do not understand why calling the turn is a good choice. My rational for betting the turn might be wrong, but then tell -- discuss -- why it is wrong. What does calling gain you in chips that betting does not?

Ryan
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