Help me with a study plan (long and probably boring)???

Another member started a thread asking a question similar to what I had hoped to ask of the 2+2 community; what is the best way to go about becoming a true student of poker (before his attitude got out of hand…just kidding, Smokey) [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Nonetheless, the wealth of information here is overwhelming (yet refreshing). I have trolled these forums for quite sometime, and I was finally ready to create an account a few weeks ago (had some issues that Mat helped point me in the right direction).

So before I lay out my self-made study plan, I’ll let you know where I am at in my poker playing and ask a few basic questions…

I have been playing poker for about 30 years (started at the age of 5 on my grandfather’s lap in his weekly home games), so have always been around cards and all games for that matter (competitive chess, backgammon, hell...$25/game Stretego and Risk in the old days) [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] …did well at crazy home games (my favorite was “deuces and jacks, the man with the axe, and a natural pair of sevens,” where 2s and Js were wild, natural 7s automatically win) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] We played low-hole, roll your own…jacks or better, trips to win…you name it, we played it...3-card guts was another favorite of mine…it was only with the Hold’em explosion that my interests were peaked to learn this new game.

I have been at it for a little more than a year…always play low-level single and multi tournaments ($10-$50+entry), and I play cash games on the $50 and $100 NL tables. This is done mostly online, but I do play back in NY (Turning Stone) every other month or so when I go home; again, I play the $100max NL table and low-entry tournaments for live experience.

I’ve took down a 2,500 person tourney just last Sunday…had a few 1st places before when I was active…feel like I own the $10 single tables, placing in the money about 80% of the time (going to get my stats started soon for more accuracy)….about 50/50 on the $20 single tables, but still large fluctuations there….could win 4 in a row taking 1st, throw in a few 2nds and 3rds, then go 7-8 without hitting the money again…the trend is up, but I think this is where I need to be for quite sometime until I feel I could login and take them down on command like the feeling I get on the $10 tables.

I feel like I have corrected sooo many mistakes I made when I first started…no longer over-value A x<10 offsuit in the early positions, et al….tightened up and play quite aggressive when I do see a flop. I am not afraid to make people pay for the draws…would say that I have an average feel for the game now having played quite a number of hands in my 1st year.

That said, I recognize a number of leaks that I am still trying to work on. For example, playing out of the blinds with a raise and when to raise out of the blinds…reading Slansky’s Hold’em for Advanced Players now and have a better understanding, but still need a lot more time and experience to grasps the concepts until it becomes second nature.

I still need to learn all my odds and % of hitting certain hands (bought Yao's book for this, but not as much math in there as I had hoped...but haven't read it all yet), odds of improving to the best hand, etc, etc…still need to reduce some of my calling and increase my raises (not a calling station by any means, but I think I try to see cheap flops from the middle positions a bit too often with medium 1-gap or suited connectors…)…lots to work on, but at least I have had enough hands that I can see that AJ-off is not the crown jewel I once thought it was…especially with a raise and a re-raise in front of me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Another leak that is improving is my semi-bluffs. Admittedly, some of my semi-bluffs or cold bluffs did not make a whole lot of sense. Moreover, I was not semi-bluffing at optimal times, so it seems (again, reading H for Advanced Players now and great chapter on this)…never really considered the J top card vs. 10 top card on the semi bluff…as simple as one having more overcards and straight draw opportunities than the other…simple things like this were never a consideration for me before, thus costing me precious bets.

I pulled out about $7K last year from PP with an average amount of play (couple hours a day here and there…much longer on the weekends, etc)…had a $.25 quarter in the account after I lost the $300 I left in there after the withdraw…every time I take a lose like that, I pull back and figure out why. That said, I was not ready to load the account with the $500 I planned to get casual again until I finished some more studying, so I added $79.75 back in the account to give me $80, which I figured to be (5) $10 tourneys and (1) $25NL session. This was a 2 weeks ago tomorrow. I parlayed that into ~$1,400 currently and (before last night’s placing in the 2,500 tourney, I was ranked 184 for the week) : ) So in short, I would say I am just a little better than average but have a long, long way to go until I feel like I know the game…thus the studying begins.


Here’s what I came up with so far...please advise:

I.) Books, Books, Books.

I must confess; I have bought most of the books, but have yet to work through the whole book before I grab another trying to assimilate everything (every time I won a $20 tourney, I would buy a book…told my wife that I don’t have to read them; just buying them has improved my game) [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] …mostly bathroom work up to this point…while doing some business in the office, I would read a chapter in, say Super System…then after a week or so, I would grab a different book and replace with, say, The Theory of Poker….always hopping all over the place.

Now, I am going to work through one at a time and make note cards…keep a binder of notes…write down every single important concept I need to go over constantly…

I am starting from the beginning (without my list in front of me, I will rough it here):

1.) Theory of Poker (Sklansky)
2.) Hold 'Em Poker (Sklansky)
3.) Hold’em Excellence (Carson? I forget)
4.) Winning Low Limit Hold’em (Lee Jones)
5.) Small-Stakes-Hold’em (Sklansky)
6.) Weighing the Odds (Yao)
7.) Hold’em Poker for Advanced Players (again, Sklansky…noticing a trend here)
8.) Super System (Brunson)

9.) Tournament Play for Advanced Players (yea, you guessed it)
10.) HOHE Part I (Harrington)
11.) HOHE Part II (Harrington)
12.) Book of Tells (Caro)


II.) Software

I will finally pony up the money to register poker tracker, so I can track more games than the 1,000 the free trial is limited to….

I plan to make a series of Excel sheets to track my bank roll; I also want to do some sheets to track certain things like, say, tourney play: # of bluffs, # of semi-bluffs, # raises, #calls, #of re-raises, etc, etc. I want to take some stats from poker tracker, like position and hands win/loss% rates…graph some trend analysis…things like that.


III.) Bonuses

I am still going through the information in the forums, but I want to devise a plan for maximizing bonuses while just starting out again…like to find 2,3,4 sites that are well-respected around here and play the old 0% credit card type of games, moving my money from site to site trying to get as many bonuses as I can to build bank…still looking into this, so could use some help

Also, this rakeback concept is new to me, so going to read up on it this week and see if I can figure it out…which sites…how much…etc…figure all this out before I create any accounts on the poker sites themselves…all new to me still


IV. Misc Ramblings

I want to figure out when it’s time to move up…at first, I was taking it from a money perspective, insofar as once I hit $500, go to $20 single tourneys and $50NL tables; at $1,000, I go to the $100NL and the $50 single table, etc…but I am finding this approach to be flawed, as if I move up too fast, I can’t maintain that level and end up back where I started (with less bank)…so trying to come up with a progression plan, but could use some help there, too.. : )


Also, should I be playing more spread games? I planned on reading my limit books before I even jump into spreads, as there are a lot of strategies (when the three-bet, etc) with which I am not familiar and hate to waste bets. I started with NL because I still haven’t gotten over my hate of the river, given that I usually enter a pot with the best hand or a strong potential to improve to the best hand…of the mentality that people will gladly pay $2/$4 to see the next card that can beat me, but the propensity to call $59.85 to see the next plays into my style of play…but in thinking about, it’s the guys who are willing to pay the $4 to see the next card that will add to my bottom line when I lean how to play spread games….so I should jump into spreads in the not-too-distant future, right?

Lastly, I checked out the ‘Terms and Conditions,” but the link was broke (last time I checked)…some of the acronyms around here are unfamiliar…MP I assume to be middle position, but a moderator posted (OC and MJ and others) some I cannot figure out…like to use the jargon for subsequent posts with hand analysis.

Is Mat and David Sklansky related? I assume Mat is the son of Dave? I did a bunch of searches, but cannot get my queries to yield the answers I seek : )



In short, does my plan seem too obsessive compulsive…things I should change…sites I should check out…books to read…software to play with…things to do…what improvements to my lesson plan can be made at this juncture?

[Jacob_Gilliam]

First off, damn that was long. O.K. you need to first learn how much you're winning and losing. Pokertracker should tell you that. Second, pick one form of poker(Limit, NL, Tourneys, S&Gs, etc.) and just work on that. You'll make more progress if you just focus on one thing rather than a grab bag of games. After you've mastered one, you can try out another.

The thing with books, you don't need to read a million of them for poker. Just get a couple of the best titles for the type of poker you want to play (yeah, they're mostly 2+2 books) and reread those over and over again.)

Go to Bonuswhores.com if you want to know everything under the sun about different poker bonuses and whether they are worth doing.

Moving up: Go to the different forums here of the games that you play. This question gets asked every couple of days, and it's different for each game.

That's it from me for now.... Good Luck!

[Student]

I work with my 30 poker books in the same way you do! I haven't read any of them from cover to cover, but I explore certain ideas by using all the books as a single research capability.

I would strongly advise that you don't attempt to annotate all your books; life is too short! Learn how to perambulate from book to book, gathering just the information you need for your present preoccupation. Read a chapter here, a paragraph there etc, and then plug that leak!

An extremely public poker player plays in tournaments on TV, and he's admitted to all that he multitables internet poker at his home, in a setup that permits him to keep up with 8 tables at a time. What he doesn't say is that he averages $50,000 per day when playing on the internet. This is NOT SUBSTANTIATED! A fellow in my city claims that he personally had as a daily goal making $1,000, again playing internet poker. Again, NOT SUBSTANTIATED! These stories are intended to encourage, and it really doesn't matter how possible they are. Personally, I'm of the opinion that I could make $100,000 per year within one year of abandoning 1/2 cents NL HE, and some of that is because I don't intend to leave these difficult tables until I know how to win at poker. Then it's just a matter of time to move up the limits to my personal brickwall, and presently I don't have the slightest idea where that wall will come into the picture. But I'm guessing $100K/yr; after all, why not set my goals too high, and then retract them? This goal isn't for publicity purposes; they are merely illustrative of what I think you need to compliment your own progress. Without goals it's pretty hard to know if you're doing OK, or not!

You have mathematical ability. Turn it to your advantage.

Your opening statement didn't mention money management. That's a very serious omission. It's entirely possible that your professional income is vastly superior to your present poker earnings. But with your talents you might easily enough aspire to greatness in poker, and earnings attendent. But don't forget to read the Ed Miller and Alan Schoonmaker articles in Internet Magazine (free here on 2+2) concerning going pro with poker! They will make your toes curl... At any rate, no matter what you do concerning poker, include money management in your considerations. Only with proper money management can you avoid pitfalls, those resulting from attempting to move up the limits too rapidly.

Consider the uselessness of ego in the game of poker...

That's all I noted, as I read your posting. I'm sure there's plenty more to talk about, but that's all for now...

Dave

Note that my post adds nothing relevent, read at your own risk.

Wow... Just... Wow. I won 25$ yesterday and ran around my house pumping my fists and yelling "YES"... Im further off than I thought.

[aargh57]

Just wanted to add a few things.

It looks like your in pretty much the same boat as me as far as books go except I went limit instead of NL. I've got a few others that you don't but you have a few that I don't. FYI, Hold'Em Excellence is written by Lou Krieger (and I didn't find it very helpful although it was the first Hold'Em book I read so I thought it was great at the time).

I think the only book I would add if you want to start playing limit is SSH (small stakes Hold'Em). It's pretty much considered the low limit bible around here and it's written in a very easy to read and systematic format (unlike HPFAP which, although a good book, is a bit clunky to read IMHO.)

As a previous poster said, check out bonuswhores.com to take advantage of bonuses. Go to the bonuswhores101 guide, there you can find what bankroll situation your in and it will take you through how to get the best bonuses for your bankroll step by step. It will also give you lots of other info on bonuses, namely, hourly bonus rates, reload bounuses, casino bonuses, etc...

Also go to rakebackreview.com to learn about rakeback. Make sure that you understand about the rakebacks before you do them. Most sites will subtract your bonus from the rakeback so you end up losing out on some good bonuses if you just sign up for each and every rakeback. I believe that rakebackreview has a list of sites that will allow you to do both rakeback and bonus at the same time.

Also, try to look into getting a HUD for your pokertracker. Something like playerview, gametime+, or pokerace. I've used all 3 of these and right now am trying out pokerace. I find it very good and it's free.

Anyway, just keep studying, playing, and good luck.

[ QUOTE ]
First off, damn that was long.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am really sorry, but thanks for sticking it out. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I probably could have made 4-5 separate (and greatly truncated) posts, but wanted to throw everything and the kitchen sink at it (and had nothing to do, so put your tax dollars to good work typing all that drivel out) to give some background info and my self-conceived lesson plan [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
O.K. you need to first learn how much you're winning and losing. Pokertracker should tell you that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played with Poker Tracker for a little bit now, and if I bought it, I would check out all the guides and try to use it to its fullest...but after I looked at Poker Office, I am back on the proverbial fence...

I hate the idea of entering in my account info for the stats using Poker Office, but should this steer me away from it? Have you used both...favor one over the other?

I'm with you here 100%...know I am up and always know the bottom-line, but session-wise, I just get a rough feel...want more tracking and deeper analysis that one of these programs offer.

Any more software people suggest? ...like the look of Poker Office, poker tracker seems to kick butt, but a steep learning curve...heard StatKing...some overlays...heard Wilson software before...like to get a few tools to help me save bets...

[ QUOTE ]
Second, pick one form of poker(Limit, NL, Tourneys, S&Gs, etc.) and just work on that. You'll make more progress if you just focus on one thing rather than a grab bag of games. After you've mastered one, you can try out another.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always read that's better to start with limit spreads, but as I posted, the no-fold'em-hold'em aspects of the low, low limits doesn't coincide with my play...but I feel I should learn the mechanics of limit and play both NL and limit...is one more profitable than the other? I assume NL could be, but has larger swings....perhaps I'll put a few months into spreads and get a little more serious in the 2/4 3/6?

In short, does it make more sense to play one over the other for students of the game? Does one facilitate long-term success more than the other, or give you a more solid understanding of the game? ...seems spreads are more prevalent in casinos that I have been to, so not sure which to spend my time on...prefer NL at the low level, but I could really get into those 30/60 games if I had some money and 4-5 more years of studying and experience under my belt [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I just feel in less control with lower-limit, but truly do not understand the betting schemes and mechanics of the game...spend little or no time thinking about it (other than I would love to play 20/40 20/60 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ), and my results on those tables reflect that, so would quite awhile until I felt I had a grasp of spreads....

If you could start all over (which I am trying to do to build a more solid foundation), would you opt for the spreads of the lower-level Nl tables for your cash games?

[ QUOTE ]
The thing with books, you don't need to read a million of them for poker. Just get a couple of the best titles for the type of poker you want to play (yeah, they're mostly 2+2 books) and reread those over and over again.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear you on this one...so much overlap I am noticing, but I like that, as it reinforces the idea that this is an important concept I need to master...semi-bluffing is in every single poker book I read, so, as we all know, this is a very important concept...like to read these theories from a myriad of perspectives, but the overlap is there...


[ QUOTE ]
Go to Bonuswhores.com if you want to know everything under the sun about different poker bonuses and whether they are worth doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just what the doctor ordered; many, many thanks! I need to digest all that, but as I see it, I could take my current roll from Party, setup an account with a site offering bonuses, play there until it clears, open another one after I clear that bonus, wash, repeat....after a round of the initial deposit bonuses, go around again based on the availability of reloads...this the general premise here?

A question I have, though, is about all these sites that offer Poker. As someone who always thinks there's an angle (my friends call me paranoid; I think of Reagan and his "trust but verify") and look for the angles myself, I am suspect of many of these no-name sites.

Any you recommend? I would do Party...PokerStars has built a solid reputation...Ultimate Bet is well-known...started on Paradise Poker (and have used the sportsbook for year, so trust them), so they get a green light...just not sure of these other sites...Full Tilt seemed solid, but the 100% bonus concerned me [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] ...smelled fishy when I first heard it, though their financials could probably support it.

In short, 4-5 well-respected sites too few to maximize the rounds of bonuses? Also, can't combine rakeback with bonuses, right? If not, I was thinking that I play the bonus game, then in the interim after I do a lap and no others being offered, that's when I fall back to rakeback...sound about right? Do monst players have some rakeback going? This, too, is new to me and not sure about the ins and outs...

I lied, one more on this issue [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Is it wise to use the micro limits to clear these like most seem to favor, as opposed to just playing my normal games of 25-$50 NL ring or low-level tourney? I guess it depends on the time I commit, but just wondering why most favor the $.10/$.20 type of tables...

Again, thanks for the input, sir...been very helpful.

[aargh57]

I don't know much about the other programs but PT is very nice and there are some promos that you can get it free from signing up.

The limit vs no limit question gets asked a lot and the responses I've seen is that it really comes down to personal preference. I've heard that no limit actually has less variance than limit but there are still going to be plenty of fish in each one.

Bonuswhores.com does a review of how review of each site and tells about how secure there finances are. They also have a list of blacklisted sites to stay away from. I've went through 17 sites (16 on their 101 list) and haven't had a problem with any of them.

A word of caution before you go a whoring. I told you about rakeback in my previous post but I don't think I was 100% clear. While it's true most sites don't let you double dip rakeback and bonus, it's just as true that you won't be able to get a rakeback on a site you already have an account with. The rationale for rakeback is that they give you a % to entice new players to their site. A good strategy is to sign up for rakeback on a skin of each major site. Preferably pick a skin that does will let you do both rakeback and bonuses (again check rakebackreview) or a skin with not as great of bonus potential (like Eurobet for Party).

Hope this helps

[ QUOTE ]
I work with my 30 poker books in the same way you do! I haven't read any of them from cover to cover, but I explore certain ideas by using all the books as a single research capability.

I would strongly advise that you don't attempt to annotate all your books; life is too short! Learn how to perambulate from book to book, gathering just the information you need for your present preoccupation. Read a chapter here, a paragraph there etc, and then plug that leak!

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your style! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Maybe review each book and the chapters contained in each, and then make a lesson plan of, say, 10 important concepts, then focus on one a month? For example:

1.) Calculating odds: ..mark each book and its chapter related to odds...read each...few notes and concepts...think through these concepts in-game until I feel I have a command of the material, then move on to the next?

2.) could be semi-bluffs
3.) pre-flop play (not in this order, of course)...come up with an ordering that makes sense from preflop to turn to river to betting et al

Sound better than trying to digest every single book written? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm guessing $100K/yr; after all, why not set my goals too high, and then retract them? This goal isn't for publicity purposes; they are merely illustrative of what I think you need to compliment your own progress. Without goals it's pretty hard to know if you're doing OK, or not!

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying here, but I thought of taking the approach of much lower intermediate goals all working toward the same ends...thinking that if I set them too high, I might get a little too froggy and leap up when I shouldn't be and fall right back down to where I was...when off course and not meeting my goals, I might play higher limits...push too hard...and fail miserably.

Right now, I was hoping for input on how to advance and when I know...my crude analysis tells me that until I take down $20 single tables like I do the $10, that's where I should be...any crude measurements I could use? ...something like hitting the money 75% of the time or greater after 50 in a row, or something?





[ QUOTE ]
Your opening statement didn't mention money management. That's a very serious omission. It's entirely possible that your professional income is vastly superior to your present poker earnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say "vastly" [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] , but my government gig does pay the bills...would never consider quitting to play poker full-time unless I felt my game was rock solid, no leaks, and could hang with the best of them (and still pay my bills maintaining the same quality of life)...minimum retirement age is 57 for me, so 22 more years of studying and hope that the game still has some life in it when I get there [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]


Money management, though, is the biggest concern for me right now...been setting lower bounds not to cross...if I ever dip a couple hundred and hit the lower bound, I step back, take a poker vacation, and try to figure out the cause...bad play...tilting and throwing good money at bad with terrible plays....trying to get too fancy...over valuing lackluster hands, etc...

But this is related to my "when to move up question." I was hoping for some help devising a method/plan to go from $2K to, say, 5K...which route is best...things to do, etc. From there, where do I need to be (play-wise, table wise, spread-wise) to go to the $10K point in bankroll...etc, etc,

What I do now is funky, but works for me...I play a $10 single table; if I take it down, I have $40 profit...I bank $20 and use $20 on the $20 table...if I money in say, 1st, this is 80 profit...I bank the $20 and use $60 for either 2 more $20s and 2 big cheap multi-tables, or 3 $20 tourneys...sort of make it up as I go along, but a plan is here somewhere...just need to find it [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Sometimes, I will take the single table winnings and use $50 for the NL cash...if I bust out, I don't play cash until I money in a single table...trying to come up with a scheme (like my old BJ double-the-bet plan...$10...lose...$20...lose...$40...lose...$80. ..win...$10) [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] <--thing this is flawed and will just say I no longer play BJ, so moot [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

For money management, I guess, like everyone else, I am just trying to figure out the best way to grow the roll while playing within myself...where I suspect the answer lies.

Am I thinking too much about all this, or have you devised a similar plan/angle of attack to reach your $100k? I could set my goals to $1M in 5 years, but without a map and a game plan, I have no idea the best way to get from point A to point B....I need direction (story of my life) [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Consider the uselessness of ego in the game of poker...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ut oh, I guess by me saying that "I own" the $10 tables could be considered hubris, but I was trying to paint the picture of where I am at so people could help with the game plan accordingly...as I said, I have played cards, though not as long as many here, for 30 years and I am still posting posts like this trying to be a student...I have some hubris, but never on the table during a match and always looking for ways to improve...and always say I have so much ground to cover until I would consider myself better than average...also feel my love of money is holding me back...know the move is to fire $100 at the pot, but I still value $100 too much sometimes to make the move, for example...


Thanks for the input, Dave...I truly value your posts and advice, as well...read a bunch of your threads and have a lot of respect for you, sir....all/any future criticisms/advice/thoughts/game plans are more than welcome. I need a plan! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow... Just... Wow. I won 25$ yesterday and ran around my house pumping my fists and yelling "YES"... Im further off than I thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, you got me....I sometimes do the exact same thing. My wife hates it when I take 1st, as I go out on the balcony to smoke afterwards and review a couple key hands and I do that SNL move....."Superstar!" [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] She just rolls her eyes at my stupidity and questions my stability . [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[AASooted]

[ QUOTE ]
Also go to rakebackreview.com to learn about rakeback. Make sure that you understand about the rakebacks before you do them. Most sites will subtract your bonus from the rakeback so you end up losing out on some good bonuses if you just sign up for each and every rakeback. I believe that rakebackreview has a list of sites that will allow you to do both rakeback and bonus at the same time.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's my understanding that playing a bonus on a site on which you have rakeback can only help you. I know at least one site (Absolute) gives the same rakeback whether you're playing for a bonus or not. From what I've read, other sites subtract the bonus from your rake contribution, not your rake rebate. I don't believe it can ever hurt you to have rakeback at a site.

In other words, if you pay $150 in rake at a site where you get 25% rakeback and get a $50 bonus, you'd receive the $50 bonus plus 25% of $100 (the $150 in rake paid - $50 bonus), for a total of $75. Playing for rakeback only would total only $37.50. Playing the same amount without rakeback would get you only the $50 bonus.

I'm new to rakeback, but that's my understanding. Someone please correct me if I have something wrong.