Folding the nut low

[flexus]

I am completely new to Omaha 8/b and I am currently lurking the forum before I will give this game a shot myself.

Did you raise the river because you thought you would win high here? Or was it because you thought you could get some calls from worse low hands?

[Buzz]

Flexus - Put yourself in the shoes of an opponent who might hold JsXsYZ and who has thus made the fourth nut flush on the river. What are the odds that the fourth nut flush will not be beaten by the nut flush, the 2nd-nut flush, or the 3rd nut flush - and for only half the pot? How much are you willing to gamble nobody has a better flush here? What would you think your odds of winning half this pot with some non-nut flush would be? How good would you feel your chances are here?

Now let's make it twice as expensive for you to call with your non-nut flush.

Forget what you know about the out-come of this hand. Put yourself in the position of having JsXsYZ (or QsXsYZ) after this betting and with this board on the river. Do you think you have a winner? How much are you willing to pay to see?

The above are all rhetorical questions. But do you get the picture?

By raising, Jonathan puts a lot of pressure on someone who might hold a non-nut flush, but a flush better than the non-nut flush Jonathan, himself, holds. Someone holding such a hand might call for one bet but decide not to pay two bets with the possibility of getting whip-sawed for even more bets.

Holding the nut low, Jonathan is not really risking very much with the raise, and may gain the high half of the pot because of it, by inducing a player with a better high hand to fold.

Another possibility is Jonathan actually has the best high hand here and will collect from those who are stuck in the pot.

The raise is really a very fine play, although it turns out to cost Jonathan a bit (but not much) this time.

Buzz

[flexus]

thank you for replying. This was a real enlightenment for me.

Do situations frequently come up in which it is correct to raise the river for the same reason as in this case?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Do situations frequently come up in which it is correct to raise the river for the same reason as in this case?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flexus - I wouldn't exactly say "frequently" - but situations such as this one do not seem unusual to me.

Part of the advantage of playing a nut fractional-pot hand, even if for low, is you can sometimes put on enough pressure to sweep the whole pot or at least garner 3/4.

The objective in high/low games is to scoop. Some players, mistakenly in my humble opinion, never bet or raise when they have the nuts for low. They are evidently concerned about getting quartered or sixthed. And you do get quartered or sixthed a lot for low when you're at a full table holding A2XY - about two hands out of every five.

You often can tell when an opponent has you tied for the low. What to do depends, of course. But even if you are fairly certain you'll be quartered or sixthed for low it doesn't really cost you very much to bet or raise. (However you may have to suffer a lecture from some ignoramus on the foolishness of betting the low - people have a lot of incorrect ideas about this game - and they keep repeating them).

I don't always bet or raise with the nut low. Often, depending, I'll check and call with it. But sometimes when I think maybe I'm alone with the winning low or when I think there's a reasonable chance to bully a better (but not great) high and thus steal the high half for myself I'll make the effort.

I hope it's very clear that I'm not advocating raising on the river to get value for the low. (But you do need the nut low to make the raise). Neither am I advocating raising, except as a secondary reason, to get value for the high. The river raise is primarily to possibly knock out a higher, but non-nut flush.

Just my opinion.

Buzz