Busted flush draw vs. two loose-aggressives...

chesspain · #1 05-21-2005, 04:10 PM

Paradise Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Both opponents are LA-P, albeit after only approx fifty hands for each. FWIW, UTG's AG numbers were >1.5 for the turn/river within this fairly small sample. In addition, in a prior hand, UTG had called the river HU with only K-high after defending his BB against my button steal--to beat my unimproved QJ.

Preflop: chesspain is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 raises, 3 folds, chesspain calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain checks, UTG bets, MP3 calls, chesspain raises, UTG 3-bets, MP3 calls, chesspain calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks.

River: (7.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain bets...

Super Pro · #2 05-21-2005, 04:13 PM

given your description of utg, you're not going to fold out a better ace which is what it looks like he has.

thejameser · #3 05-21-2005, 04:16 PM

HU is different than 3 way. In the long run you will be beat by one or the other more than 1 in 8 times. If it checks through A-high may win, if your bet is called you are probably beat, if you check and someone bets your A-high is probably beat. I think you should have checked 3 way.

chesspain · #4 05-21-2005, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
given your description of utg, you're not going to fold out a better ace which is what it looks like he has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was more interested in trying to fold out a bigger ace which was possibly being held by MP3.

Nick C · #5 05-21-2005, 08:00 PM

Hmm. I'm having trouble figuring out what anyone has.

It looks like maybe UTG also missed his draw? Maybe he has 97 and decided to get cute on the turn? I guess more likely it's a missed draw. I'm having trouble seeing the better ace for him that Super Pro mentioned.

So, let's see, I think most likely you have UTG beat, though on occasion he will have a turned monster. That leaves MP3, and I don't really know what he's been calling with. I guess probably a pocket pair or a big ace, though a flush draw is also possible.

So probably we need to get him to fold to win. If he's been calling with a pair, I'd imagine he'll continue to do so. He might give up his ace, if he would have hung around this far with AT or AJ or whatever. Possibly he'll also fold A6 or A8, but I'm not confident about that, especially after the turn check-through, even though you were checking the flop 3-bettor on the turn.

If he's come this far with a pocket pair, I doubt he'll give up now.

I don't know. I probably would have checked and folded to a bet from MP3 (though, actually, I think checkraising might work) and thought about calling if the action went this way instead: check, bet, fold.

I also think your river bet could be worth a try. I suspect that when I'm at the table I don't consider my river options as fully as I should in spots like this.

(Ugh. It just occurred to me also that UTG could have a hand like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. If so, it doesn't sound like he's giving it up.

I really don't know what's best on the river here.)

Fnord · #6 05-21-2005, 08:15 PM

I hate the flop check/raise. 3-way you might have a very small equity edge but these guys don't like to fold and you're out of position so no cheap cards for you. Against players like this I just play my hand straight up and certainly wouldn't bet A-high into 2 calling stations. These guys really hate to be pushed off a hand.

oreogod · #7 05-21-2005, 08:24 PM

Yeah from your read doesnt seem like they fold a whole lot, so not sure about the flop CR.

Dont like the river bet, if it was heads up sure...MP2 is the one u probably have to worry about. Either way these guys are calling with their little piece of anything. Im sure they will be calling with At-AK as well.

I either bet or call on the flop.

chesspain · #8 05-21-2005, 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah from your read doesnt seem like they fold a whole lot...

[/ QUOTE ]

So far a couple of respondants have made this assumption, which I don't think is something that can be surmised from the initial reads I gave. The fact that both were more passive post-flop vs. preflop, and the additional fact that UTG called me down with K-high on a steal hand does not automatically mean that both players are calling stations.

[ QUOTE ]
Dont like the river bet, if it was heads up sure

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if I was heads-up with UTG, I doubt I would have bet out on the river.

Fnord · #9 05-21-2005, 08:37 PM

Yeah, thinking about it more, I really hate the flop c/r. You have little (if any) equity edge 3-way. If you are just called you're pretty much compelled to bet a blank turn and getting raised on a blank turn is going to suck. UTG is in the perfect position to check/raise trap both players if you hit. Finally, you're building a pot putting you in spots like this where you're tempted to do something other than check/fold the river after missing twice.

chesspain · #10 05-21-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the flop check/raise. 3-way you might have a very small equity edge but these guys don't like to fold and you're out of position so no cheap cards for you. Against players like this I just play my hand straight up and certainly wouldn't bet A-high into 2 calling stations. These guys really hate to be pushed off a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are making unwarrented assumptions about these players.