Tight and aggressive preflop is not enough

bdk3clash · #1 02-27-2005, 02:52 AM

A lot of people have been fretting lately about the increasing tightness (as measured by VPIP) on Party. At various levels, this appears to be the case. One reason for this is the increase in the number of tight, aggressive players playing multiple tables.

However, I've also seen a lot of people fretting that the games are drying up and are no longer as profitable as they once were, or profitable at all.

While tracking the statistical trends of the various levels on Party is somewhat interesting and marginally useful, I'd just like to point out that the games continue to be very, very good, even if they aren't as good as they were in the past. Egregiously bad players (I hate calling them "fish"--I prefer "donkeys," "donks," or "producers) are still playing in droves, but more importantly there are vast numbers of players who are tight and aggressive preflop but just suck postflop.

I understand the stage these players are in, because that was me when I first started playing hold'em seriously. I thought that being tight and (somewhat) aggressive preflop and playing fit or fold postflop should be enough to make me a substantial winner in small stakes game. It isn't.

Improving your postflop play is absolutely the most important thing you can do. Stop worrying about statistics. Stop worrying about your winrate. Start worrying about not sucking postflop. It's what keeps me up at night.

Here's a hand I played against a player who is excessively tight and reasonbly aggressive preflop. I think he took a horrible postflop line. He had TT in this hand (what I had doesn't really matter.) He essentially took a line that wins him the least when he's ahead and loses the most when he's behind:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop:
UTG raises, bdk3clash 3-bets, 7 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, bdk3clash bets, UTG raises, bdk3clash 3-bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, bdk3clash bets, UTG calls.

River: (8.66 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, bdk3clash bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

What's the point? The point is that you should not fret if you're playing against tight opponents. Most of them are pretty bad postflop. Just don't be one of them.

Learn blind stealing and blind defense.

Learn that raising light preflop feels naughty at first but vastly increases your chances of taking the pot down with a flop or turn bet. The notion that aggression on any street essentially buys you outs and makes you money (by getting your opponents to check when they should bet, call when they should raise, or fold when they should call) isn't discussed very often on this forum, but I think it's important (and something I struggle with.) Abdul Jalib discusses this on his site quite well.

Learn that raising preflop and on the flop allows you to make folds on the turn and river with a better conscinece because an opponent betting or raising someone who has shown strength on that or a previous street means a stronger hand than betting or raising someone who has played a hand passively.

Learn that even though not all of your opponents are braindead fucktards who you can nut-peddle against and value-bet the shit out of, many of them are still bad postflop and very profitable to play against.

gaming_mouse · #2 02-27-2005, 02:59 AM

Great post.

Just curious...

How do think your oppo should have played this? Folded the turn? I just wonder if you are capable of a flop 3-bet here w/ AK....

gm

gaming_mouse · #3 02-27-2005, 03:03 AM

Also: Link to Abdul Jalib website??

bdk3clash · #4 02-27-2005, 03:04 AM

I think check-call, check-call, bet river is valid. Check-call, check-call, check-call is valid. (Obviously board-dependent.)

The only reason he should be checkraising the flop is to see if I 3-bet (signifying "overpair"). At worst I have a 6-out redraw and most likely if I 3-bet the flop (or call the flop checkraise and raise the turn) he's drawing to 2 outs and should fold.

Once I 3-bet the flop, check-calling the turn and river is terrible. I really, really don't have AK/AQ, especially once I bet the river. This is a pretty easy turn fold for him against me, even if he doesn't know anything about me other than that I am not a maniac.

bdk3clash · #5 02-27-2005, 03:06 AM

Abdul's website is posev.com. It's mandatory.

EDIT: I can't get Abdul's site to load. I'll try to find an archive of it and post a link--it really has some great stuff.

Harv72b · #6 02-27-2005, 03:10 AM

I had to check my histories to make sure this wasn't me. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

As far as the games "drying up"...all I know is that despite some glaring holes in my game which I'm constantly noticing & trying to fix, February has been my best month evah on Party. As you pointed out, there are some piss poor postflop players with relatively low VPIPs (and conversely, I've been running into a few good postflop players with ridiculously high VPIPs, enough to almost make me think about dropping down to micros & giving that playing style a test run).

I know I made some absolutely horrible postflop plays when we were on the same table the other night, and believe me--I've been worrying about that a lot more than the 30 or so BBs I lost over the past couple days. This is what holds me back from taking any stabs at 5/10 right now.

gaming_mouse · #7 02-27-2005, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Once I 3-bet the flop, check-calling the turn and river is terrible. I really, really don't have AK/AQ, especially once I bet the river. This is a pretty easy turn fold for him against me, even if he doesn't know anything about me other than that I am not a maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, good point. Even if he thought you were semi-bluffing w/ AK and continued on the turn, he should not have called the river.

Btw, what would you have thought of his line if he HAD folded the turn or river? Still clearly inferior to the c/call all the way (or c/call but bet river), or is it close? Please explain your thoughts.

bdk3clash · #8 02-27-2005, 03:12 AM

Don't get me wrong--I make bad postflop plays with disturbing regularity. But that's what I think about instead of "hmm, my VPIP is low, maybe I should be open-limping in MP with JTo" and crap like that.

cowboyzfan · #9 02-27-2005, 03:15 AM

really great post. This is one reason I am amused by the constant refrain in the book forum of the "danger" of SSH. Even an intermediate like me can see that passivity is more dangerous than aggression (more likely to lose) among those who know something about the game.

what do you think of the Fekali stuff? link I asked about it the other day and got no responses, some of it looks like the precursor to some of the SSH ideas.

private joker · #10 02-27-2005, 03:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Learn that raising light preflop feels naughty at first but vastly increases your chances of taking the pot down with a flop or turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

A problem I have run into with this playing style is that after the first time I am called by a pair of 5s and everyone sees I have been betting with K- or A-high on every street, this kind of flop and turn aggression loses its teeth. I raise PF with KJs, and hit a flop of T63, the guy with A6o check-calls the flop and turn, the river checks through, and now I'm the guy who bet with king-high the whole hand. No more taking pots down on the turn.

What do you do in this situation -- change tables?