Fast or slow - flopped boat

moose47 · #1 02-05-2005, 05:57 AM

Recently I've seen a lot of posts dealing with slowplaying and how sometimes just playing fast and straight forward is the better move in a lot of circumstances. So here I am ready to receive my admonishment for this hand. I just sat down recently and didn't really have a read on anyone.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

I was initially going to bet this but I could just visualize the rest of the table folding. The chances are slim that anyone else got a piece of this. Although I am well aware that at this limit people will call down with just about anything so perhaps I should have taken a chance. When it came back around I didn't checkraise because I didn't want to give off any sign of strength yet. I thought that would be too obvious that I at least had a K.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Ok, now it gets interesting. I think it was a mistake not to bet. If it gets checked all the way through then that accomplishes nothing. This time however when the button bet I was going to checkraise and apparently I wasn't the only one.

River: (15.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.

Pretty standard...

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

reubenf · #2 02-05-2005, 06:26 AM

That's how I'd have played it. You aren't really open to redraws, so you gain very little from anyone folding that flop. The most frequent reason not to slowplay IMO is because it can be dangerous, but it really isn't here.

On the turn, the button probably figures to have the best hand as the turn card isn't scary and nobody raised him on the flop. So he's quite likely to bet and I think you can go for the CR here.

jon_keck · #3 02-05-2005, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The chances are slim that anyone else got a piece of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Underpairs, queens, straight draws, ace high, and someone who just doesn't believe you have anything will call here.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it was a mistake not to bet. If it gets checked all the way through then that accomplishes nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the main thing. After raising pf and with only one player left to act behind you, you need to bet the flop. Even after the button bets the flop, there's no guarantee he will bet the turn, and that would really suck for you.

Wario · #4 02-05-2005, 08:42 AM

I hate the flop check. There are still plenty of hands people will call with here and you can't be sure Button will bet, when he checks through you lose bets.

Once button bets I think not check/raising is a mistake as he may not bet the turn. The board's looking pretty scary and some players just like to bet if checked to as some sort of bluff. He's going to check the turn a reasonable amount of time and when he does you lose a lot of value. EDIT: Just noticed you already discuss this under the turn action. Check/calling the flop and the betting out on the turn would be bad because you win the same as just betting both streets but you risk having the flop checked through.

River is standard.

I think you're giving your opponents too much credit for their ability. They aren't going to be scared away or worried about you having a monster. They also probably aren't thinking about what your flop check could mean.

btspider · #5 02-05-2005, 12:08 PM

bet flop.

given the check, check-raise the flop.

DeadManJay · #6 02-05-2005, 12:29 PM

The check-raise on the flop would have been great considering your position to the button bet, the whole table had already called you should have went ahead and raised. Bet/raise the rest of the way out.

alfatcat · #7 02-05-2005, 12:46 PM

Although I might have bet this flop, this is a perfect hand for slowplaying, I would think. You've got a monster hand, and there are some draws to 2nd best out there (straights, flushes, sets, and lower boats, and yes, sure, runner-runner quads) but very few to a better hand than yours.

But I think I disagree with the others about check-raising. You would definitely get another few small bets on the river, but a check-raise is a strong play (I think one of the very few things that the average micro player actually notices) and it has a good chance to slow down your opponents.

On the turn. I might have now bet out, but I definitely liked the 3 bet after UTG + 1 raises.

River seems like you did exactly what you needed to do! Hope you didn't get beaten by quad 9s!

ncboiler · #8 02-05-2005, 01:42 PM

When you have all cards you almost always have to slow play. It would be different if you had 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and got to play for free out of the small blind and flopped 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Then people with overcards and pocket pairs and flush draws may give you some action on the flop But when yuo hold all the good cards...not many chances of callers on this.

Catt · #9 02-05-2005, 02:54 PM

I also hate the flop check. With only one player behind you, you're risking (a significant risk) that this gets checked through. You raised pre-flop -- most players expect you to bet the flop in any case. You got lucky that button bet for you, but I wouldn't do this again.

TomBrooks · #10 02-05-2005, 09:02 PM

On Pacific and Party .25/.5 & .5/1, I have found being the first to bet into any paired board causes a lot of folds most of the time. I'm going to estimate I'll see 3 or more callers only 20% of the time and 1 or 2 callers 70% of the time. With the OP's hand, I think it's better to try to get more big bet calls.

Luckily, the button bet. People are more willing to call a button bet because the button is correctly inclined to bet with less of a hand than anyone else. I would definately not check-raise the button even though I was in the best position to do so because I would expect to fold some of my possible big bet action to this very scary board, even though they already made one bet. I would then find it likely to have killed almost all, or all the action, from anyone who stayed to see the turn.

Hopefully, some folks who would have folded to a flop bet by you but not the button, make a hand or a draw on the turn and give you action. I think there are only 11 hands that can beat you. Namely, pocket pairs 22-JJ and an Ax, with a runner-runner of the same rank they hold to make Quads or Aces over Kings.

This hand is so unlikely to lose, I wouldn't worry about that; although once I lost with the next strongest hand to yours. I had KJ, the flop came KKJ, and I lost to an Ax and runner runner Aces. But I get sucked out more than any other poker player in the world, at least lately, so you probably don't have to go by that.

-TomBk

Warning/Disclaimer: Beginner writing.